so is healing not important ?
stg can't be doubled up like bar
and are u saying major is + ambulance is a worse retreat point than fhq ? u know u can move it where u want right ? and it heals in area ?
"it does not delay tech" lol didn't know BP and truck had instant build time, u could literally call the okw truck flame nade unlock , u don't need a genius here, having tech divided for the same cost is an advantage not a disadvantage u must be pretty biased to not see that, especially considering in COH2 u can rush a lot of things , example if ukf wanted to rush n AEC it could skip side tech , okw or osther don't have such choice , the upgrade are bundled with tech and are not discounted : aec + tier 1 45 fuel
okw 60 + -10 starting fuel (so 70) for luch or puma and ost 60 IF they skip tier 1 so most likely 70 fuel for 222, "BuT i WaNt WaPoNS" then get them it's 15 fuel so u get 60 fuel cost "BuT i WaNt NaDeS" get them too it's 10 fuel so we reach 70 fuel, loook at that u get the light vehicle weapon upgrade and tech unit for 70 fuel SAME as osther or okw but guess who has the option to get it earlier at 45 fuel ?
Wtf does bf and truck build time to do with delaying tech? You still get acces to every upgrade.
Please find where i said medics are not important.
Volks get 2 stg,s genius.
Major ambu foreard retreat point isent worse then okw fwrd rtrt point. While mobile it is easier to destroy.
When you getvsomething earlier because certain thing are in side tech can work in your favor. It also open you up to other stuff the enemy gets. So you say its an advantidge is just opinion. |
no i literally said axis does not get free upgrade, i did mention okw pays pays more for less is some aspect (stg are 1 bar , 1 sherck etc) , i did not say ost (that's why i added okw in the ()) pays more, ost pays same as su
Okw used to be the biggest offender in "free" stuff. Medics repair station and point denail included with tech. No extra cost no upgrading needed just tech. Now of course the dont just get them. Usf crews medic and retreat point at least require micro and are quite vunerable so their is higher risk involved, this balances out the benefits mostly.
Something okw did not have to worry about mostly if at all.
Free might not be the right term for axis upgrades. But they do pretty much get a bargain. Its all included. You get your upgrade with natural tech, you will always get acces to them. It does not delay tech however slightly that may be. You also get abilities such as riflenade inc nade next to new units.
So the stg,s for volks not being as strong as 2 bars seems fair.
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If KT is the argument (and people prefer Tiger over it) simply make it doctrinal and tone down allied TDs the game would be in much better place...
or add any other restrictions or nerf needed to the KT.
For instance one could redesign KT to have great defensive properties but lower the effectiveness of the gun be less powerful. Or make then gun good only AI or only in AP or have the gun work like ISU-152 with HE/AP shells or having a very long reload.
Or one could apply the same changes I suggested for IS-2, lowering armor to 300-320 and have each veterancy level increase armor.
There are many solutions but having allied TDs being OP because KT exist although few people use it make little sense.
Very true, but they opted for the easier fix. Moving it to doctrines is something i support for a while now.
We dont see the kt a lot because its counters where buffed and the kt itself got some nerfs and is slow.
All factions must have answers to the stock and doc units of the opponents. The kt was just so redicoulus to be a stock unit in the first place.
The amount of recources and effort required to take it out was out of preportion. The shreck blob made it even worse. Imo that does make sence to buuf the counter specificly for such a unit. It was build every game, and when build it was gg 1 or 2 minutes later mostly. |
That is simply cherry picking stats to create a distorted impression.
The stock Comet/Churchill have 290/240 armor and then there are allot more high armor doctrinal tanks and commanders that have them available to allies than there to axis.
Stug/JP have 59% and 70% vs Comet/Churchill.
The FF has 81% chance to penetrate a Panther (highest Ostheer stock unit) max range and SU-85/M36 has 85%.
Vs a brumbar 88% and 92%.
The only stock unit with high armor is the OKW KT.
Increasing the penetration of JP/Stug might make the "way too OP" but it would bring them inline with allied TDs that are already "way too OP" that not only have higher penetration but they also get penetration bonus with veterancy.
Imo IS-2 armor (and other similar units) could easily have their Armor greatly reduced and move to veterancy bonus instead.
I get what your saying about allied td,s. But stock axis armour is jus way higher specificly the stock kt has twice the armour most allies can bring out stock. Allies need a doctrine to do the same. So allied td,s being way op have the kt being stock as a valid reason. Unless deflection or x% chance to do deflection damage is implemented. |
What you said for 6man late game cons, apply to 4man grens. Except grens have even less utility, cost more to reinforce and their faust needs line of sight and has longer delays and they are up against higher dps infantry.
So Cons now get late game buff while grens get none. The RD for RA i wont say is comparable to the free buff of 7men and its vet bonus.
It is always a buff here for Axis, but needs another nerf somewhere...
Grens dont drop as many models and dont require constant ammo to be vaible. Those higher dps inf are quite a bit more expensive as well. Only reinforce cost for grens is high, but they do more damage at range from relative safety.
Yes grens have a higher chance to get wiped but vs soviets its the lowest chance. But grens have a easier time staying at range. Have an actual upgrade early on. They have a good mg, good med to close range troops covering for them regardles of tech choice or doctrine. Grens have their faust from the start and gain lmg rifle nade gradualy with liniar tech. 2 extra ways to reinforce out of base, 3 ways to heal instead of one in both cases like sov non doc. Get a damage reduction at vet 3 like elite inf.
Grenz get their buffs earlier on in the game where cons just get lolotov and at nade. A slight toning down on the 7th man may be in order nothing more for cons.
Grens can maybe get the recc acc back next to damage redution. Is worth looking in too at least. |
I posted my views after the buff. Search my history.
As for in game, in my 2v2 games, yes i see less Cons before. I also thought Cons are unviable from what i read on forums complaints. I believe other players back then thought so too.
But after watching the Wc19. Cons were holding their own BEFORE spending for upgrades. Against Volks, against Grens. AFTER spending the upgrade, they hold too well, too well more than Grens for sure.
So i guess i am wrong. Top players showed Cons do work as they are intended before buffs were really needed.
You are right that cons work until late mid game without doctrines or 7th man. They idea was that doctrinal inf needed to replace them at that point. Problem was those doctrinal inf where even more expensive then counterparts. Sovs where hooked or addicted on doctrines just to be viable after 15 minutes at launch.
But cons do fall short once vet 3/5 kicks in along side earlier ai upgrades and armour from axis. also axis armour bar the stug is a lot better at dropping con models then a t34 or a quad and while m5 quad can supress when stationary it dies in 2 shoot and because of supression it wont kill models fast. Unlike an ostwind wich will obliterate cons.
In the late game cons drain your mp from reinforcing while dropping very little enemy models in return. Their snare has shorter range thus oorah is kinda mandetory for the snare to connect. So its overal more expensive to snare with cons wich is their only real use without 7tm man or doctrines. So without either of those cons always trade bad with anythjng they do. Economicly unviable is the term is was looking for.
That said the 7th man can use a slight tone down. The is2 and all heavies need delays. |
It is not fine. If you watched the games, the 7 man upgrade comes about 15+min mark and the squads were quite vet up. Meaning stock cons are more than enough to hold their own without the upgrade. People just didnt try them enough. At least top players showed cons are viable, even without ppsh upgrades!
Leaving the upgrade as it is, or a pity 1 cost nerf OR decrease bonus. Means Grens stay at clear losing ends late game. Like how much to reinforce grens? Their lmg is worthless against cover Cons. Lmg worthless chasing squads. 7man are much easier to stay alive and will eat fresh grens for brekkie. Rifle nades are like scratch against Sov squads.
Where were you during testing? And to say cons where enough but people dint try hard enough is BS. Bye this logic you dont try enough with ost, their entire roster is sollid including doctrines.
They could not attack any inf nor hold them off their dps late game was pathetic when compared. At one point they got a redicoulous 60% rec acc buff with vet only to allow a snare attempt.
All that utility and recc acc evaporated in the late game except oorah and at nades. So worth 240 mp muni drain vet time high mirco and side tech.
Bundles brums and even rifle nades can one shot them. Pgrens volks obers mop the floor with them, no f×××× given. Volks have very simaler levels off utility but beat them at every stage off the game.
Cons are only more durable if you dont take grenades and ai upgrades into account. |
And this will remain which unit is currently more competitive than other units. There should be one starting infantry unit, and T1 and T2 should give the game styles: T1 - aggressive, T2 - defensive
I dont see that working on a agressive faction. Cons a short range defensive unit with oorah. Penal an agressive unit with no nades or ai upgrade.
It would require a lot if rework wich will likely be out if scope forever. |
No worries.
The problem with the 7 man upgrades people is that it's simply too good of a package.
You're also ignoring what I said earlier. Grens also need tech to get them to peak performance, by the virtue of having to tech twice; researching battle phase and putting down t1 or t2.
As for Soviets, at this moment in time, you will see an IS2 nearly every time. If you face a Soviet in 1v1 or 2v2 right now, there's no way they're not going IS2, unless matchmaking has a fetish of putting me against people who only go IS2.
The fact of the matter is that Wehrmacht is depednent on the MG42. Your Grens are not going to beat Penals, Sections or Rifleman on their unless its under extremely favorable circumstances.
Even basic cons need an MG42 to counter, because there will always be more Cons than Grens.
I can agree that 7th man can be toned down. But not removed. Cons where non excistant late game far more then grenadiers. Before 300mp penals soviets had no inf presence outside doctrinal inf in the late game.
Grenadier are/where easier to vet up when replaced late game cuz of better long range profile and non doc lmg upgrade.
When grens need tech to reach peak preformance that tech also gives acces tech building lmg rifle nade and multyple units to choose from. You will see more cons then grens because cons start out worse in dps terms. You can gave all the hp and utility in the game but it dont mean jack if you cant deal enough damage yourself.
Penals sections rifles all cost more then grenadiers. Thats why they should not win 50/50 vs those units. T34,s get wrecked most of the time vs a single p4 esp okw p4. Because its cheaper. In both cases you need support or have the numerical advantidge. Nothing wrong with that.
So the Is2 just like tigers and other heavies need a delay.
The 7th man can use a towndown. Imo the vet boost and 7th dude needs to stay and cover bonus can be toned down. Decreased reinforce cost removed or toned down. But at nade and molly no lonfer required at t3. |
That's not how the game works at all. Doctrines aren't assigned to players randomly. Just because it's in 2 out of 20 doctrines doesn't automatically make it a 10% chance. IS2 is in two excellent and meta doctrines, and features in at least 60% to 70% of 1v1 matchups.
The non-doc KT that Allied-only players keep complaining about - that hardly ever shows up. Less than 5% of 1v1 games at best feature a KT.
Note that the thread is about 1v1 and 2v2.
Very true but thats because it isent i win anymore. Just as the cmd panther isent anymore. Stalling for those isent as viable anymore.
Stalling for is2 is to easy now. Same with tiger kv1 kv2 etc. |