It is very difficult to repond to all of this. I simply don't agree with most of the stuff You write about how soviets are inferior. They are very strong imo. Remember that you can't mix ostheer with OKW as these are two completely different armies. We''l simply have to disagree. Back to the topic of the thread: repair speeds of ostheer are the slowest, next there is OKW with very expensive repair unit. Soviets and UK are faster and sov repair more cheaply, while USF is the best at it. It affects the use of heavy tanks largely - silmilarly to healing for infantry. Imagine that one faction has limited, much inferior and more expensive healing.
I am not saying infirior. I never did. I am saying siviets have other ways to make up for things they are less good at. Such as not having the best tanks preformance wise. They are cheaper. Repairing them cheaper non doc or via doctrines. I never said or meant to say soviets are infirior. All this time i am saying ost has x then sov has y as balance.
Soviets having lower hp tanks in general get repaired quicker. That is balanced against ost having better options to avoid damage. Its that simple. I am not writing in riddles here, i dont know how much clearer i need to be to get through.
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*sorry to reply like this but some glitch does not let my use reply option
And their time is longer as they have more healthpoints. We agree here. But if your opponent pays less for the repairing unit, and gets many more repair options imbalance is created, which leads to shorter periods of tank support on one side. The more tanks on the field, the greater the difference.
The regeneration speed of vehicles' helthpoints is the same. If a vehicle has more of them it will take longer to repair and it is ok. What is not ok is that USF, for example, will replenish healthpoints much more quickly using crews and echelons together, for example.
But this is balanced by their price. Repair speeds have nothing to do with that. Initially, allied tanks were inferior and this was offset by the crews or some more repair options. Now tanks are to a large extend similar, a bit different assymetricall, but repair speeds have been adjusted only a bit.
It is really hard to discuss things as You keep mixing so many issues together. I agree that the game is about lots of interleaving units and abilities and timings and costs etc, but it is just impossible to throw so many things into a discussion about heavy tanks. I will try to reply, though.
Ost cannot reinforce anywhere on the field unless you pay for it and, because of it, will have fewer squads on the field - very risky if you are playing against smb your level as such static positions are easily countered. Even when you pay for reinforcement structure/unit you still have to pay for reinforcing. You also have to add the cost of healing or resign from it when far away from the base. Generally, a merge is a much better solution as you get it for free and works everywhere on the map. I gave you an example with reinforcing engineers by conscripts and not needing to retreat before you repair with full speed. Not much to add, really. If you don't understand it I connot do much. To sum up, repairing for soviets is simply cheaper (CE cost) and faster (doctrines). It affects all tanks, not only heavies. USF repair speeds are the fastest and UKF can also get very effective engineers plus abilities similar to SOV. IMO it should be addressed by adjustments to the cost of CE and pios or by allowing ostheer some other repair option - I'd go for stock coh1 repair bunker (150manpower+50 munitions upgrade)
What you wrote is just so wrong. Basically You should try and play ostheer. Really - you will see from other Soviet players how useful cons can be with sandbags, tripflares, hoorah, molotovs, at nades, and 7 men. You seem to be totally missing all their strengths (including the strength of a molotov's ability to deny cover, etc.) To the topic - heavy tank play largely depends on their ability to regain hp. It is much easier to regain healhpoints for allies. We shouldn't toy with heavy tanks stats, but first make sure that factions have similar (cost/effectiveness) methods of repairing such tanks. To begin with, I'd add a repair bunker for ost.
The overall preformance outside of their repair abilities have everything to do with how quick a tank can get back in the fight.
The soviets CE is the weakest in all other areas except repair. on that front its on par with the rest. The PIO,S while repairing will see an incoming threat to the damaged tank they are repairing sooner. Thus giving a better chance to get the tank out or let other at sources force it off. this is a reason why the CE is justly cheaper.
Ost next to having better overal engineer has better AT and more option doctrinal and nondoc to avoid damage up until the SU85 is deployed.
yes their option to heal and reinforce on the field do cost you recourses. i never said that it didnt. and ofcourse it means less squads on the field but reinforcing and healing on the field is never to be underestimated or ingnored because people tend not to use it because your investment can be countered. The side tech for cons and merging all the time does the same, it still costs you mp and lots of it if used often. Cons can easely be lost during merge. and merge aint free you need to replace the models and or the squad after a merge, its not that the models magicly respawn for free after x seconds. You need to play some soviet it seems.
Soviets have lots of repair options including the doctrinal ones. Because they lack a lot of options to avoid damage. all their stock armour is penned with ease they lack smoke options unlike ost and okw armour does. Their vet doesnt increase their durability in the slightest, the CE,s are mostly rubbish in combat outside the flamer, they dont have extra sight or can they dual equip or put their sweeper away or get AT weapon upgrade.
i,ve said my piece about the CE and their cost to preformance ratio. feels like i am talking to wall on this subject. There is no reason to increase the cost of CE,s just because they repair at the same pace as other engies do.
I never said cons are weak up or usseles. i think cons are finaly golden, they have never been better in fact. I said cons are cheaper to reinforce for the reason of low dps per indevidual model. Furhtermore they are actualy pretty expensive inf compared to others to get them at their max potential. Just as they have a very high micro tax as well to be at peak preformance compared to others.
Also back to heavy tank repairing. its still easier for axis to pen anything allies can field except the IS2. this is a reason they get back on the field faster. Axis have better chances to bounce and more options to avoid damage esp then soviets, while also having a lot more acces to their heavies. there is no denying this fact.
For however slighty more costeffecient allies can repair their tanks they tend to loose their tanks slightly more often then axis do. its called balance.
Ost has repair station doctrinaly now just as soviets do, ost has blitz/extra hp and armour with vet/pznr smoke/smoke strafe (to avoid damage and help escape) sov can get to do crew repairs and can ram (for 300mp 100F)to secure a kill. Thats some more balance. |
I don't understand your post and what it refers to. Piso can build sandbags and everybody probably knows that tbh. The comment I reffered to is about mg42. IMO it is balanced by weaker 4 men mainline infantry from ostheer and less armour on their light vehicles. Against ostheer, allied mgs work fine imo. The fact that no mainline ostheer infantry can build sandbags helps here as mgs used against green cover don't work that well. Grens or panzergrens can't protect themselves like volks or cons while capping points, for example, which helps allied mgs to deal with them. I can understand that the story may look differently when playing against okw, but their mg34 seems similar to allied mgs and comes later than ostheer's.
In your earlier post you said 4 man ost squads cant build sanbags unlike others. I didnt realise you meant grens specificly. My bad.
Imo the mg34 supresses quite well, including bunched up units. Something allied mg,s dont do as good as axis mg,s esp the maxim. Wich imo underpreforms slightly for cost.
As for the rest of your comment i agree.
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Well, being on receiving end it might seem so. Yet, one must remember that the game is assymetrical. Allied mgs deal more than adequately with ostheer 4 men infantry that can't build sandbags, and really voulnerable ostheer light vehicles that often get seriously damaged even without ap rounds. The only problem might be OKW with luchs, but they don't have access to mg42s. So it seems fair to me.
Pio,s cant build sandbags?....
Next to ap rounds ost tellers do excist. Ost lv,s or not of the same caliber as allied lv, s are, that is why they get great ap rounds and such strong at mines and no tech faust on grens.
Rifles and echelon cant build sanbags as well. They get other thing to cover for that. Rifles only do buildsandbags in doctrines. |
Well, I really feel it is the other way around. Players feeling that some axis factions are underperforming are quickly insulted or accused of being biased etc. IMO it is bad for the gameplay and balance.
we will have to agree to disagree on this one.
I don't really understand logics here. I understand only the beginning. The health pool of those vehicles is the same - two vehicles with higher health pool will require similar repair speed to three vehicles with lower hp. What matters is the cost. When you have more expensive vehicles and more expensive repair units, and they are not better than cheaper units your opponent has there will be imbalance as the opponent may use the saved manpower to spend on other units.
If those more expensive units also do and take a lot more damage for that price, their longer repair time is justified.
cheaper units tend to have less impact in dealing less damage or take less damage or both, thus having the need to have more then one. so their repair time is justly shorter.
axis doctrinal heavies tend do deal more damage then allied doctrinal heavies for the most part. allied doctrinal heavies can take more punishment or are cheaper with simaler durability but worse dps.
...only to explain why combat engineers don’t build sandbags
No - merge can buff repair speeds. If you have a tank in the middle of a map and a 2-3men pios squad, you have to decide if you want them to repair more slowly or retreat, reinforce and come back to the vehicle to have quicker repair speed of a full squad. Both options take long time. With soviet engineers it is enough to reinforce them with conscripts and they repair with full speed, without the need to come back to base. I’ve seen it help a lot during gameplay.
Discrepancy stems from the fact that pios are more expensive true, but also because they are easier to reinforce thanks to merge, and there are a lot of repair abilities in Sov doctines including cons repair/repair station/crew repairs. These abilities happen to be in doctrines with heavy tanks or premium mediums, which helps those called in heavies and mediums a lot. Both ostheer and OKW are behind here. In my opinion, such situation influences the armour performance (including heavy tanks from the topic) more than many people realise. Instead of addressing this, people tend to keep asking for changing vehicle stats as they feel this is where the problem lies.
I dont agree with that - cons pay less for reinforcement of a single model. Also the way damage is distributed in the game sort of 'promotes' squads with more models. Very often such squads lose health first and only when they are very low on health, will they start losing models. It often means that they retreat with many more models than you would expect looking at how long they stayed under fire. On top of that there is always a chance for a crit that kills a model. The more models are shooting at you, the higher chance for a crit, so again larger squads are promoted. Additionally, dropping a model on a larger squad means less dps dropped. There are many more arguments here. All in all, soviets don't bleed more if you play on the same skill level.
no you dragged merge in there as part of CE durabilty. you forget that ost can reinforce and heal anywhere on the field. cmmd bunker, medic bunker, and halftrack for both, medic ability on most of their inf. placing these in the right spot will allow your pio,s to be fully manned and healed and repair at full strength as well. merge only brings the models back to up to 4. carrying over the hp of the cons at that time.
this is another case of selectively choosing stuff.
cons do pay less for a single model because a single model is worse then other single models in dps terms. only the fact that they are 6 men lets them do anything outside their side tech (wich is exclusivly for them) or doctrines. cons are supposed to take a beating. but that comes with a lot of models dying, they will drop enemy models less quickely then axis drop them. you know having actual nades and ai upgrades will do that. The higher dps of axis will drop 25% per model indeed but for that model to drop its not unlikely that 2 cons will drop at the same time.
Yes and no. Ostheer don't have 60 range tanks destroyers and will have to close in to deal damage - this sole fact means that they will absorb more shots because they will be kited into mines/at guns/hand held at weapons as a part of natural tactics. Allied tank destroyers just shoot being out of range themselves. That is why repairs are so important. You have to dive, see what happens, and usually retreat for repairs. Generally density of anti tank fire is much higher on allied side. Ptrs, at nades, free ptrs on guards for example add to the overall at volume of fire a lot. Especially dangerous when playing against UKF and USF when they can equip bazookas and piats on literally every infantry unit, and some of them will get their elite versions. I can’t agree that you can concentrate only on stock vehicles. Soviets have a plethora of heavy doctrine tanks while UKF has both stock and doctrine heavies.
The game is really well balanced for an assymetrical rts. There are only nits and picks to polish up. Some of the things you threw into argument I found really irrelevant. This is a thread about heavy doctrinal units. It is especially important to analyse how quickly their regain their healthpoints for each faction, as this is pivotal to their balance. One just shouldn’t change their stats too much after years of adjustments but concentrate on what has been neglected. Last patch addressed repair situation to some extend. Still, I find it far from balanced. Looking at the matches so far, it is clear to me how much imbalance there is concerning time and resources each faction needs to use to bring back damaged vehicles on the field. Axis are inferior here imo and it should be addressed asap.
ost has a lot more acces to smoke and has a speed ability to help them get in a dive and kill a target or get out of a dangerous situation quicker. they have higher pen chances then soviets do on most units. and more tanks that they field in a game have higher hp.
this balances out that they have no 60 range td. skilled players can and will use all of this to avoid damage and kill targets.
Ost has plenty of options to reduce taking damage, more then soviets do. They have more options to keep pio,s on the field then sov do. Again that is why there is nothing wrong with taking a bit longer to repair more expensive better tanks with slightly more expensive enigies.
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Jezus christ, whats mrgame2 the gonna post tomorrow? Maxim>MG42 OP pls nerf or Cromwell to OP?
Dont give him inspiration. He will probably doe just that. |
Not true, simply. I'm also nobody's buddy. The problem is that everybody can see the tournament and which factions usually win. It is really easier to win as allies most often. A lot of people writing here don't show their playercards and play just one faction. Most play allies and the result is that sometimes they ask to buff already very potent units. And when speaking of ‘buddies’ You seem to have more of them tbh. But to the point.
That is not true for many reasons. But to cut the stroy short – both factions need repairs as much. Soviets have repair in doctrines plus cheaper engineer unit. It creates imbalance that should be addressed before anybody starts touching tanks’ stats imo. Making engineer units cost the same could be a delicate move in the right direction. Especially, when taking into account the fact that sov engies can be merged into thus making them more survivable and effective because they can repair and not retreat to reinforce.
The above has nothing to do with engineer vs. Pio price difference and how it affects the tank (heavy tank) gameplay.
Both factions have good openings, just different. Early game is quite neatly balanced. The problem begins lategame and when you need to repair tanks – there is the discrepancy that favours Soviets and allies in general. With the cost of 170 soviet engies shouldn’t have been given extra repair speed with sweeper or should have been made more expensive. They are just too cheap for all the utility they have compared to pios. Heavy tank balance is largely affected by this.
It depens where you watch your games. There is more then the tourny that show how high level games.
The same can be said about axis and wanting buffs on units that dont need them. Like you and mr game2 are doing.
I always found the axis community to be more vocal. Thats just my opnion though.
What is not true about soviet usualy having more vehicles on the field? A panther and p4 costs more in recources and pop then what sov have stock. Ce,s and pio,s both have 5 pop. Only the su85 reliably pens the panther from the sov stock units.
Seeing as the pio,s do more then ce,s in combat building and support i still see no valid reason to increase the price.
You brought cons with merge and them building sandbags into the debate, saying because cons can merge ce,s should be increased in price. Pio,s have more healing and reinforcing options outside of the base then ce,s non doc alone. so your claim that they are more survivable is a myth as you like to put it.
I cant wait for the many reasons you mentioned to try and convince me. Please elaborate.
You say there is a discrepancy late game because of a 30 mp difference in engi costs (total of 60 to 90 mp depending if you loose a ce squad) I counter that with cons requiering a lot of additional mp to scale. on top of dropping lots more models thougout a game. By far the most if any inf.
The fact is that axis have heavies or premium mediums with heavy armour and hp non doc. By definition means axis have longer repair times but less repair moments total because they can bounce more stuff. So they indeed have simaler repairs, if i wasent clear last time this is what i meant.
You can say what you want about me bringing in all sorts of stuff that according to you is not relevant. You ignore the factions design strentghs and weaknesses and focus on a very small thing in the faction and insert little nit picks to validate something being op. But when others insert other nit picks to counter its irrelevant somehow.
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Well, in my opinion you seem very self confident, that is all. Maybe I can see through cerain things, too. Maybe we just have different opinions. I used to create games and their rules and even have some experience here. But of course you can see things differently. You should let other people do that too..
There are many ways to repair vehicles through doctrines for Sov and that is important. But more importantly engineers are cheaper and lategame it matters a lot when there are more tanks on the field and you usually need more of them if the game happens to be against a very similarly skilled opponent. Observe the tournament or some replays and you will see that very often allies have both infantry and tanks on the frontline while axis have only infantry while their tanks are waiting for repairs. It leads to heavy bleed from axis infantry staying on the frontline without tanks' support for much longer periods. Good allied players, especially USF, use that to their advantage.
Well, sandbags are built by t0 cons, which is much better for the whole faction and it would be much better for ostheer if grens could build them - pios wouldn't need to do that. Soviet engineers are good in many more ways then you admit. The difference is too negligible to justify such price difference.
What you describe is what happens when you flank soviet 6 men team weapons with grenadiers early game. Soviet engines are often better than ost pios because they don't have to close in and risk being wiped. Pios need to close in to deal any damage, which is generally super risky for such a squishy squad. So the whole thing is situational and depends on what you need rather than that one is better over the other. All in all, the DPS profile of soviet engies makes them less likely to get killed as it allows them to deal damage from further range and works much better when equipped with flamer. 
I would be more resonable if you and your buddy didnt come over so one sided. With almost everything about nerfing allies and buffing axis, for reasons that have little to do with balance imo.
Sov tend to have more vehicles fielded at once, with most having 150/160 armour. Meaning axis dont bounce shot off them much if at all. So the engies need to repair more often then pio,s would need to. Hence doctinal repairs for cons.
Cons can build sandbags because they cant dont have great dps at mid and far range, they cant get normal nades therefore have less wipe potential as other squads. They have no snare from minute 0 as grens do. Cons where designed to support other units being a backbone in that way. To get them up there with volks rifles etc you need a lot of mp and fuel and or doctrines invested in them on top of their initial price. Grens can build bunkers anywhere wich can upgrade to 0 pop mg or reinforce or healing point for cost. Less cost efficeint as merging but it does help.
Weapon team members have really poor dps. Pio,s can fight 6 men team cqc pretty well. They will force them off or risk wiping them. Ce,s esp with flamer will take longer to do the same. So still pio,s can build more fight better and have bonus vision.
As for support that pio,s have. A t0 mg to support them and long range grens backing them up.
Ce,s have cons and maxim wich imo is a weaker opening then mg42 and grens. Penals is a way more expensive opening. Imo ce,s are rightly cheaper. |
Objectively incorrect. Don't use it from max range.
It has literally the best accuracy on its main gun of any Ostheer vehicle. The BEST. No Ost vehicle is more accurate than the Panther.
Its autofire is awful now. The spikes are still harsh sometimes but its overall bleed is back on par with a mortar and a half worth of investment, with manual barrages needed to make the most of the unit.
Very well said. I agree a 100%. |
It could be the other way around...
But it isent. I can see past 4 man squads and see things that soften or migitate having lower hp.
I can see past low dps units and things that make up for it on a other unit in the faction.
You still drag doctrines into faction balance. That there are doctrines that allow cons to repair or a repair station is a seperate thing. It does help repair tanks much quicker indeed. On the other side pzr tactician allows panzers to escape with less damage done to them so it also saves repair time.
You cant see why ce,s cost only 170 mp. I can. As already stated ce,s dont excel at any range outside the flamer, ce,s dont build bunker or sandbag, ce,s dont get extra bonus vison for squat.
The only real thing that ce,s got over pio,s is the demo.
Flank a team weapon with pio,s and the team will need to retreat or be wiped. Flank a team weapon with ce,s they do some damage but takes a lot longer to force it off let alone wipe it. |
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