If you upgrade them with Sweepers you will lack AT for infantry
OKWs AT gun is a total joke,Kübel can get destroyed very easy,Volks struggle against Infantry Section,Rifles and even Conscipts also I do not get how "and top of that obers in the highest tier" is somthing positive about OKW ... this would mean that it is positive getting Infantry by a time where infantry isn't that usefull anymore and OKW is not the only fraction with non doc heavys ... Brits can get even multiple ones (and btw.KT isn't anymore what it used to be) ... but no matter this has nothing to do with the fact that OKW will lack Anti garrison tools when you put Flamenade behind tech . Even a cost of 25 fuel for the Flamenade Tech will delay the Luchs so much that is will come after AEC
I never said i want the flame nade behind side tech. Its current tech is fine. The timer did the job.
Volks struggeling vs section and rifles is as they should. They are cheaper and have obers later down the line. Rifles and sextion are it for usf and ukf. And volks just dont waltz over cons anymore that is all. Just upgrade your volks and cons will loose nearly every fight unless they go doct ppsh.
And Yes obers are not able to solo any and all squads at any time like before. Their dps is a good addition to any infantry force.
Okw's atgun can retreat cloak and garrison unlike all other at guns and its also t0. That it can be lacking in other areas is fine balance wise. Its also cheaper.
The kubel is an excelent backcapper, it can cap without needing a squad inside wich also has decent dps. Yes it can be destoyed quickly but it does not bleed models.
I said non doc "super" heavy tank. No other faction has that. Kv1 churchill etc come no where near the impact a superheavy like the kt has. And the kt not being a auto win button anymore is a good thing.
OST has Flamethrower,SU has Flamethrower,USF has mortar,UKF has Universal Carrier which can be equipped with an flamethrower + Infantry Section (performs pretty well against Garrisons if in cover). OKW only has Flamenade which now needs a truck on the field to be used,has a timer,costs a lot of ammo (compared to Flamethrowers which only need to be upgraded once and can be used for the rest of the game)and doesn't really do that much damage and now you wanna lock it behind an Upgrade ? This would basicly ruin OKW . Either you get your infantry locked down by enemy Garrisons since you can not counter them or you will delay your tanks so much that you better press "Surrender" instead of fighting a battle which is already lost .
Okw has the strongest starting unit wich can put away its sweepers. Okw can exert the most pressure early on with sturms. They have t0 at. They have a light vehicle that can cap and shoot without vet and doctrines. They have extremely cost efficient volk and top of that obers in the highest tier. And the only faction with non doc super heavy.
So okw being helpess because luchs arrives later? I dont think so.
That said i dont want to put the flame nade behind tech. The timer on them has done the job. I just wish the stg44,s becoame a trade off instead of being a no brainer.
Its already low rof gets lower when one uses the flare.
I dont know the excact numbers, but in my experience a single mortar gets of about 2 shots while the flare is in the air.
Again to truly gain a benifit you need other arty. Meaning extra investment in arty needed to max out its use.
Also people should be carefull with what they wish for. Removing the flare could lead in bringing precision shot back.
most people seems to think the ost mortar fire 3x or 2x faster than the soviet mortar.
and the rof on the soviet mortar is fine. It is factually less destructive than the ost mortar but still serve its function if you use the barrage ability.
Instead of giving the sov mortar such a powerful ability by default, the ost should have been nerfed in some way instead.
(yes, they are doing that now, but the sov is still going to keep the vet 0 flare.)
The ost mortar almost fires 2 times as fast. So its not unreasonable to state that.
The fact that it is less destructive overall the the ost mortar. Speeks volumes to why the soviet mortar never should have cost the same as the ost one in the first place.
The ost one can break attacks, clear out posistions counterbarrage and smoke. It can do all faster then its counterpart. The soviet one can smoke, spot for muni cost and has more hp. Its dps is pittyfull. This does not justify the same prices.
The flare is only worth while if you have other arty to take advantidge of its use. Meaning another 240mp is needed just to make it worth while.
With just one mortar its about 2 to 3 rounds that you can fire under the flare.
how often is the mortar going to retreat? especially a mortar crew with 6 men? The soviet sniper also take some time to get to vet 1 as well.
lastly the mortar flare is also cheaper than the sniper flare (40) and the major recon (50).
the pioneer get 42 sight, compared to the usual 35.
scouting unit like the m20 get 50 by default and 60 vetted.
they are still no where as convenient or powerful as the flare. It's an extremely safe scouting ability and also one of the most effective.
Scouting unit at least require you to get within weapon range and stay there.
units revealed by infrared still count as being in FOW, hence artillery will still suffer the usual 25% scatter penalty. Flare remove FOW and hence improve the effectiveness of artillery. Beside, the Leig lost its 100m range a while back.
the mortar flare is also 30 mu, not 40 mu. The one on the soviet is 40 mu and have a shorter range at 50m.
81mm: 4 sec reload + 4 wind down/up + .5 fire aim time = 8.5
barrage: 0 reload + 4 w d/u + .125 FAT = 4.125
the 82mm auto fire is 30% slower and the barrage fire is 70% slower.
people way overblown the ROF advantage ost mortar have over the sov.
I remember the flare costing 40 muni. I could be wrong here. I almost never get a sniper so i dont know the cost of his flare.
Do you use regular/ground attack or barrage to clear out a building or weapon team? 70% better barrage and 30% better rof vs 30% more hp. That 2 to 1 advantidge ost.
I dont know the rof stats etc for counter barrage. But that is still better then the flares. Range dps vs sight and small acc boost.
So how i see it, its 3 to 1 advantidge ost mortar.
But if the all mortars rof go towards sov level rof in this patch, its a different story alltogether.
At the moment the soviet mortar gets only 1 or 2 shots at the target, after it fires its flare. Its rof is still the worst off the worst.
To do some substancial damage you need other arty or a second mortar to join in. An ost mortar has nearly the same impact of 2 soviet 82mm mortars. In nearly all situations.
The 6 men durability is balanced by the fact that ost has more potent grenades/ small arms plus team weapons/ non doc upgrades and on field healing. Wich soviets do not have.
Also Okw have non doc map hack and scouting at guns. They have the easist time to reinforce leigs at hqs on the front.
Ost pios have bigger sight range for free at vet0. Ost has spottings scopes doctrinaly.
So how is a 40 muni flare on the crappiest mortar OP when taking this into consideration?
To me its easy, it is not OP.
Counter battery actualy can kill others mortars somewhat reliably. Unlike a single flare.
That is inaccurate allies get many things with tech:
USF tech
T1 LT (Squad with Thompson/bar cost 300)
T2 CT(Squad with Thompson that can upgrade bazooka, production speed buff cost 320)
T3 Major (Squad with Recon/FRTP/off map arty cost 160)
UKF tech
T1 (unlocks medic kit/Pyrotechnics 1 base gun)
T2 (unlocks 2 base gun)
Anvil/hammer (air-bust shells/Advanced warning/heavy engineers)(Vehicle trucking/gammon bomb/emergency war speed)
Yes true. Still usf and ukf have specific tech for getting main inf fully upgraded. In case of brits one tech can lock out the other.
Soviet compared to Ostheer get some free staff also like: Free Penal PTRS upgrade, free grenades for doctrinal infantry.
Ost and okw also get that. Pgrens get free bundle nades etc.
And again the main disadvantage Ostheer have is they pay for the tech regardless if they use it or not.
It still does not mean that it should counted as total cost of a fully upgraded squad.
Ostheer player will pay for lmg, shreck bundle grenades,... even if they do not uses this items once. Ostheer do not have any real advantage when it comes to teching.
Bundles dont require extra tech neither do shrecks. Its all readely available for a muni price just like penal ptrs.
I'm pritty sure that USF tech costs including weapon racks is about equal to OSTs. This means while unlocking weapons is cheaper than tech with OST, the weapon rack cost is made up by cheaper tier costs later on.
Also if 30 mp costs justify such a strong unit vs volk and grens why are panzer grens (and even obers) not have a proportionate advantage over rifles?
Pg grens will melt unupgraded rifles esp if they get the jump on them. Same with obers.
Now upgraded rifles cost 90 muni per squad the mp and fuel tech cost to be added divided by the number of rifles squads. Wich mostly is 3. Wich would be 100mp and 12 fuel (These might be out of date i need to fact check that)
And again how many capable infantry does usf have non doc? And how many do okw and ost have non doc? If rifles cant carry the inf fight what can for usf?
You also have to to add the cost of the T1 building to produce the grenadiers.
That is incorrect one does not have the option to pay just 15 FU for the LMG, you have to invest the total even if one never plans to use it. And that is part of the reason why g43 are so popular.
The difference here is that USF and UKF can chose if and when they want to invest in something while especially Ostheer have one of the most rigid non rewarding tech structure.
Overall I would Ostheer are in disadvantage when it comes to teching.
You still have to take into account what the tech gives you. Allies just get specific abilities or weapons for specific units.
You say you will need to tech for it regardless if you use all it unlocks. The fact remains that ost and okw tech unlock more then allied regular tech. Like tech structures new ablilities upgrades and units.
You cannot simply add the total price and say, ha grens and volks are more expensive fuel wise while half of the tech costs grant other things then upgrades and abilities. Unlike allied side tech.
It seems you want to equalize specific units to balance things, but not take into account that they need to fight units of different strength. This wouldn't really work for a few reasons.
(interesting points below, but I didn't read the entire post first, so I put that stuff in spoilers)
Every faction being a mirror of each other isn't what people want. The problem is that certain units are over-performing in certain roles across entire sides of the game. Allied mainline infantry IS in general better than axis mainline infantry in pretty much every role except long-range static combat, which isn't very common in CoH2.
It's similar to how Axis tanks were better than allied tanks at pretty much everything until the DBP. That's fixed now, and the game is much better for it (no more mass-panther spam), but the same problem still exists with infantry, and it needs to be addressed. Sure, it might not as bad as the tank situation was, but it's still a significant problem that's facing the game; and one that could easily be changed by just limiting squads to 1 purchasable weapon upgrade. That's all people are asking for.
That isn't an accurate comparison. In a vacuum, double BAR'd rifles cost 280mp (squad) + 150mp/15f (weapon racks) + 120muni (double bars), totaling 430mp/15f/120muni, whereas LMG grens cost 240mp (squad) + 100mp/40f (T1 tech) + 60muni totaling 340mp/40f/60muni. The thing is, though, even with an extra 60muni, you still can't double-upgrade grens, so the muni argument is kind of moot since spending extra isn't a possibility for one side.
So really it's "Why should a 430mp/15f squad be weaker than a 340mp/40f squad?".
The answer is, they should be about the same; 90mp for 35f is a pretty good trade.
That is not accurate either.
The 100mp and 40 fuel unlock more then just the lmg42. It gives you the rifle grenade as well. It also give a tech structure wich in turn give acces to better units. The unlocks for bars zooks and grenades dont.
So of that 40 fuel only 15 is for grens directly. And that grants you the lmgs and rifle grenades.
Rifles are the only nondoc capable inf for usf. Ost gets 2 okw gets 3 and both also have good non doc inf. Rifles are more expensive then both grens and volks. Thus rifles should be a bit better overall when max upgraded.
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