Well i dont really think conscript are that bad. Maybe i dont play at high enough levels.
But in 95% of my russian build i choose for a conscript build over penals.
They are a good tough squad.
They have decent good snare
Molotov comes handy in city maps
That are the basic toughts about their combat effectiveness. Besides they are super flexible in their utility.
Uurah for speed and flanking mgs
Merge into more usefull squad (think about flame engies or guards)
Tripwireflare, this is so cost effective.
And all the doctrinal stuff you can alter them with.
Conlusion, i think they are OK. Vet gain i dont really know. Maybe make the molotov somewhat a more viable option? In teching cost are usage cost i dont know. Just some more anti-inf capabilities.
Volks are slightly less durable.
Utility is simaler
Dps is much better, non doc stg invalidates cons close range advantidge. Pssh,s correct that.
Volk can build sanbags, deney cover, snare just like cons. Unlike cons the can salvage wiped team weapons, deneying recrewing 100% and ganing recourses. They can self heal with vet at no extra cost. They have no side tech wich delays techup, they just get all of their stuff as you techup. And ofcourse have a non doc ai no brainer upgrade.
Merge and oorah dont make up for lacking ai upgrade an poor weapons or side tech and doctrines exclusives for cons to give basic utilities or abilities.
Eather volks cost need to go up, but then tommies and rifles are to cheap by comparison. Or cons cost must go down. Imo they have no busniss costing the same as grens and only 10 mp less then volks while both stomp them in too the ground.
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Assuming they get a cost reduction their Ludacris vet 3 would need toned down as well. Assuming that's the case it here can probably be a way to keep the PPSH an upgrade in some manner. A small side addition to MP could certainly be the answer to keeping it from being too cost efficient
Even without ppsh,s cons need to be closer then all other main lines to do their bit. Their ludicrus vet 3 rec acc is quite neccecary to do their job a this time.
Before it was .61 or .64 i believe right now its about .70 most other main lines end up around .8 or .85 recc acc, please correct me if i am wrong about this.
If the difference is as i think it is we should not nerf their rec acc to much. |
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Your logic in solid, i agree that cons need to be cheaper. 210 is their actual worth imo.
We could also put the ppsh as side tech wich you unlock with 4 times 30mp =120 (the difference you safe for making cons cheaper) a small feul price of 20 is also good. the cp requirements and muni cost can stay the same.
Thought anyone?
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While I don't agree with the exact points OP gave, I do agree that soviets seem to be over performing a bit, especially in larger team games.
Particularly, the self-spotting mortars thanks to flairs and penals seem to be the main issues I can think of. The former seems out of place, since indirect fire shouldn't be able to self spot, and the later seems to be entirely due to the early scaling of penals.
Once a soviet player gets two Vet 1 mortars, they are basically impossible to counter, since they can constantly self spot - it also makes getting your own mortars incredibly challenging, which means ost has basically no structure clearing abilities, save for the weaker flamer-pios.
As for penals, the main problem is that their vet 0/1 performance is far too high, meaning late-game losses aren't too much of a problem. I think their Vet 2/3 performance should stay about the same, as well as cost, but their current performance vs. vet 3 grens at medium range is just far too high at vet 0/1, trivializing late game engagements. An alternative to a direct debuff to this unit would be increasing its pop-cap, meaning that supporting 4+ squads as well as other units would become much harder.
An argument could also be made the the PTRS upgrade doesn't seem like a 'trade' in terms of AT vs. AI, but just an overall upgrade. IMO it should work more like the shrek upgrade for PGrens, where AI power is dramatically reduced for AT power.
Ost mortar has counter barrage at vet 1. It isent mind bogeling good but its usefull. Those mortar flare rounds cost 40 a pop i believe.
As for garrison counters, the flametrack melts anything in a building or garrison. And pio,s are better then combat engies by a large margin. Extra long sight range and up close they do pretty decent damage.
As for penals vet 0/1 beating vet 3 grens at mid range seems to me to be more an rng thing. Or the fights started at mid range?
The pop increase i dont think is neccecary.
The prts cant be fired on the move, has low rof and to my knowlidge have a hard time hitting inf. So its definitly a trade off in ai. Pgrens get shrecks wich do way more damage in an instant that why their ai is hiit harder.
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depends if its a setup team. they cant always tear down fast enough, and a GOOD soviet, throws the charge at a buildings doorway so it catches you as you leave. itll still one shot the buildings in its aoe, so youre most likely going to get crushed. - oh, and the bigger issue imo is the one shotting buildings, caches and whatnot.
the other broken ass thing, is that soviets DONT pay tech costs with specific doctrines, combined with the strength of t70s and the soviet dominance in t1, it just snowballs out far, far too fast. when i say they dont pay tech, i mean they dont NEED to anyway. As in, you can CALL IN t-34s with a variety of good doctrines, which are perfectly valid, actually strong, midgame tanks. as WM, i have to pay tech costs to get anything on that level....and not cheap ones either. 90 fuel to hit t2, then 15 for the building? so you SHOULD always have map control, and therefore more tanks than me, especially after dominating t1 with penals.
T34 85 kv1 require tier 4 to be build they are not callins any more for a while now.
Satchel has a quite long timer and reletive short range. Most squads have time to get out or avoid them. And most building have two doors use the other door. Only mg,s suffer the brunt because the must pack up the gun. |
A nerf to the tellar mine would mean that Ostheer light vehicle counter will further weakened.
That would would result into a further buff to Soviet who are already one of the strongest factions or some re-balancing of LV play, either toning down T-70 or making Puma stock for Ostheer.
222 a pak40 faust shreck can all kill it, Litteraly anything that does more then tickle armour can kill a a light vehicle that is that heavely damaged.
Its time for ost and okw to face the fact that you reap what you sow. Now its the turn for the teller to get nerfed imo. I just hope it doesnt become irrelevant like the demo. The -20 damage will hardley make it usseles. |
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The demo was to cheap and thus spammable. The price should have been nerfed to 120 or 150 muni and maybe being spotted from a smaller distance then currently.
The demo was royaly over nerfed because axis players had to make a bigger effort when taking a point. Because the demo was made as good as usselles you get the cry for teller ohk nerf.
The teller ohk,s any light vehicle and is not triggered by infantry is not to expensive and manual input for detonation is not required.
Lowering its damage so it leaves the lv with a sliver of health and engine damage makes follow up neccesary is not unresonable and doesnt make it usseles. (axis have plenty at options to do this) and gives the allies a small chance to save their light vehicle. |
Right...because the alternative to "going volks" for okw is spamming raketens, kubels, or sturms as your core infantry. I just struggle to see your point since you're saying something along the lines of "theres no down side to building a core infantry squad instead of going a complete troll build."
Volks are cons 2.0 for only 10 mp more. They have no side tech that delays your tech. anything cons do that volks can do as well volks do a lot better. Their total package is to potent. you dont need anything else except hard at. Sturms obers kubels all are under used because off how potent volks are.
Also, depends on what you're considering mid game. Most people would say 15, maybe even as early as 10 minutes. By that point, IS and riflemen should both be outDPSing and outlasting volks.
I agree on this. I just mean to say other main lines have more clear weakneses. Volks appear to have next to none imo. |
A lot of people have said this, but I struggle to see how. Volks are 250, rifles are 280, IS are 280, cons are 240, penals are 300.
Vanilla volks vs vanilla rifles are about equal at max range, and strongly favor rifles at close range. The margin to which rifles are favored probably justifies the extra 30 squad cost and 3 reinforce cost. 1 bar rifles beats stg volks (280/60 vs 250/60). Rifles also have stronger vet.
Vanilla IS vs vanilla volks favors volks at mid and close with or without cover, slightly favors volks max without cover, and favors IS max with cover. 5-man IS beat stg volks everywhere except close, which only gets better for IS when they get brens. Again, the extra cost for IS makes sense to me considering how much better their scaling is.
Cons are utility and super durable with vet. They're also clearly the worst mainline infantry when it comes to combat. Volks are better than them in combat, which doesn't say much considering every other squad is too. If they have ppshs though, they're probably better than volks in general.
Penals are more or less 6 man volks when it comes to combat power. Their insane vet means they don't have to spend munitions and still scale well.
I just don't see in which comparison volks punch above their weight (besides non-ppsh-doc cons, which again doesn't say much).
Volks have simaler utitily options to cons, they have better fighting potential then cons esp when the stg,s come out. The stg is always available and is only 60 muni for a buff at all ranges. Basicly invalidating cons from that moment on if they dont have ppsh. Ppsh is doctrinal and cons laughable long range dps gets even worse because of it.
Volks can self heal at vet 3. The vet3 super durability for cons is neccesary to even give them a chance late game.
Penals are more expensive and their at option hurts their ai quite a bit. They have no ai upgrade hence their good vet.
There is basicly no down sides going volks for okw. They have none to exploit to gain an advantidge vs okw. They outspam outlast and in the midgame outdps most if not all other main lines. |
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No other army has such a strong starting unit. No other faction has a capping vehicle that does not need a squad or cost fuel. No other faction has 3 inf units that can fight in their line up non doc. No other faction has non doc camoed t0 at gun wich can retreat. No other faction has a main line inf squad that has such utility combined with such fighting power for very little cost. No other faction has a non doc super heavy.
Dont go victim mode on okw it has plenty of strenghts. Volks punch way above their price range right now.
Guards op? Guards are doctrinal cost a lot more, need to stop to do any damage. Drop weapons like crazy. Clear weaknesses to blalance them out wich volks do not have.
If a t70 is raping your med/heavy tank its on you. Okw has plenty at options use them. The luchs also forces a similar response from the allies. |
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