Profile of thedarkarmadillo

Jump back to quoted post20 Mar 2022, 16:43 PMBasedSecretary

I don't really think what you say is anything of value.
that would be because of your apparent lack of understanding of faction design, the role of units within their faction and the weight of it.

What you spend a wall of text explaining is that basically not every faction works symmetrically against/with each other. That's something we all know. And in the older days, that was even more exaggerated.

you claim to know, yet are trying to compare 1 to 1 soley on an arbitrary classification and ignoring the relevant factional details that you simply cannot afford to do in balance

To the point: you say nothing by pointing out that if OKW had a Panther with 4vet (????) it would have a different cost efficiency. Ofcourse it would have. In the same exact way that if SOV was a science fiction faction and had T51s with 25vets and RPGs as snares it would have a different "cost efficiency".

you are missing what im saying. if you added the EXACT same panther (one with 4 levels of vet) to OKW and ost, they would HAVE to cost differently. their value would be different within the faction despite being identical. for ost it would be an upgraded version, for OKW it would be a nerfed version. thats how impactful internal balance and faction design is.

However we try to keep the convo at earth level, not science fiction movie level. REs, CEs, Pios, Sturmpios, RE are all considered to be engie units. Just because there is some flavor inbetween them does not mean they are different.
eh? they are night and day different. or are you trying to say sturms and CE are basically the same unit? thats like trying to say that shocks and obers are the same because they are AI units.
do RE have to build base buildings like Pios or RE? are they the sole form of repairs like sappers and pios? are they ineffective at range like pios? you seem stuck on the label of engineer, and while its true they can do some engineer jobs, that isnt their primary role, and that in itself makes them different

All of them are supporting units, some better at it some worse at it. REs in 2022 balance tend to the worst aspect, because they have been nerfed to oblivion over a course of 6 years. At first they were spammable to shit, then they got nerfed, then they got their cost up and now they are a "not good not bad" unit territory. Basically a USF "Ostruppen" thing.
this is an area where you are actually right. thats actually their job. they are reserve troops so to speak. they are not frontline fighters, they are not engineers like those of other factions.

Pointing out fictional versions of doctrines cannot help. That's my end point here.

the doctrin analogy was to help you visualize the impact using an existing system. for the sake of it make them stock in the same building for all it matters if eliminating that label makes such a differenece to you. a vet 4 panther along side okws vet 5 one and osts vet 3 one would be priced differently even if it was identically

Jump back to quoted post14 Mar 2022, 00:40 AMSkysTheLimit

I would maybe even say they can do AT pretty well with 2x zooks. Its far from the best AT squad but its very cost effective and pretty solid at vet 3

this is true
Volley fire could be slightly better, but it's easy for that to become OP

aye, i think when they double nerfed it they should have only single nerfed it (iirc they gutted the power AND added the target size debuff at the same time, one or the other would have been a better route imo

Jump back to quoted post14 Mar 2022, 10:32 AMProtos Angelus

That would be true if pios were the same or CEs for that matter.
RE are a different unit, in a different faction than both pios and CE and they fill a different role entirely, so this is frankly irrelevant
Rear echelons have one early game utility... lay tank traps.
thats finer and all, but for some players the game progresses past this point. when you get there you will start to see the value in RE
Tank traps are useless vs MG42s because they are so weirdly modeled that the MG42 will always suppress in a burst or two any squad behind the line of tank traps (2+).
mg42s are working as intended. they are in a defensive faction sporting small squad sizes and low burst damahge. controlling the enemy infantry is how ost survives
They are decently useful to hold against pushes, as they are green cover, but besides that, useless (ok, harder to destroy than sandbags).

They lay useless mines.
this is false if you look at them outside of a vacuum. are they tellers? no. but they ARE in a V>RY munitions' thirsty faction. its better to have a cheap mine you can actually throw up, than a good mine that you never get the chance to lay. whats more, due to the aggressive and mobile design of USF coupled with their squishy armour, having the ability to slow a wide front is incredible useful. as other factions less so, but for USF they are the perfect mine for their needs. and its not like you lose the ability to lay proper mines if you WANT to, the scout car has super mines, ass engies have mines and rifles can lay em too in certain commanders. give RE regular mines and you have made 3 abilities nearly pointless. jackson balance 2.0
Their only real useful utility are the caches (later on) and carrying zooks to deter P4 dives (even later, after BARs).
this is false, RE provide a lot of utility, including access to smoke.

Now I've done the tests and I found the following:

Rear echelon behind green cover, solo pio charging over neutral cover: Pio wins with 2 models remaining, echelon retreats with 1 model. Only way to stop is to use muni for the volley.
thats great, but irrelevant. if you look closely, pios and RE are not in the same factions are not balanced around each other. they fill different roles entirely, with some overlap. you would bve just as well of using the results of charging an mg42 against a rifle squad if you want to ignore roles.

The test where Rifles charge pioneers behind green cover, over neutral terrain: Rifles win with 2 models remaining on average, pios retreat with 1 model.
So on one hand, an engineer unit can charge another engineer unit and win easily, but a mainline unit doing the same thing to the engineer unit (pioneer) will win a Pyrrhic victory. You will bleed more than pios, and let the incoming grens/MG42 do the job easily.
yes. thats the early game role of pios. they scout and defend against aggressive pushes. thats literally their job. unless you expect grens to fight off rushing rifles or expecting the mg42 crew to fend for itself.. combined arms is supposed to be a feature of the game, not the basis for a whine post..
God forbid you play on a lane-y map where you can't flank and the MG42's wide arc can easily cover 2+ points.
good thing usf hasw a smoke dispenser at t0 (two even, if you cant the REs ability to do so) if the enemy can use combined arms why cant you?

The first skirmish is echelon vs pio, pio wins. By the time your rifles come to the frontline, so does the MG42.... good luck. If you decide to wait for the rifles to join the echelons to have a 2v2, then you're in for a treat because on most 3v3+ maps you really need to take the long way around (grens come) to flank. Not to mention that you need to chase down an MG42 while pios are closing in and putting a hurt on you.
entirely a L2P problem mate. lots of people not just manage, but obliterate ostheer as USF. stick in cover and focus fire the pios, then you outnumber the MG. pios have a target size of 1, and 4 models... its really a non isssue with proper target prioritization. forcing off the support of an mg42 forces off the mg as well, because if yo cap that its GG then and there.

Also did the following test. Pios vs rifles, pios come around the sight blocker (test done on beach Across the rheine, bushes around the neutral point below the hill).

Rifles standing still in neutral cover, pios come from neutral cover and the whole skirmish is with both units in neutral cover... just to show the close range power of pios... pios retreated with 1 model, rifles with 2 models. 4 times in a row... 4 model pio put a hurt on 5 model 280 MP rifles close range, neutral cover.
bad tsest that doesnt emulate in game scenarios. no ost player is going to yolo their pio into a retreat, because even 2 rifle models is enough to force of their mg
One thing I've learned from experience is: If you are fighting rifle + echelon vs pio + gren... And the pio is charging... Even if the grens are in red cover, focus the pios first. If they get close enough, both echelons and rifles will go down quickly. I know because it happened to me last game. Didn't even notice a pio charging, both rifles and echelon were behind yellow cover ( I was fighting on a different part of the map and I can easily press "1" and "T" in case of a rifle nade). Rifles and echelon were firing at the neutral cover gren, while pios literally mowed down both echelon and rifles to 1-2 models each, as they closed in point blank. Close in point blank with echelons and you'll have enough time to boil some tea before echelons kill anything
yes, thats how relative positioning works. do you have a story about how if you ignore an AT gun itll take out your tanks too? of hopw if you leave a sniper to sit at range without interacting they will wipe your squad? its a game. it requires you to play it, if you dont you will lose, and that isnt a balance issue

Of course, as time goes by, you get the flamer to scale, at which point rifles lose until double BARs come (or win a Pyrrhic victory). Later on, there is no way for the pios to win in any way-shape or form against rifles, as expected. But the opening skirmishes in teamgames, OST is vastly superior to USF in 90% of scenarios. Heck, if I see that I have a spawn against OST on a lane-y map in my VP lane, I just ignore it and help my teammate 2v1 on the next closest lane.
Not only are most green cover positions designed for 4 model squads, but the idea of rifles being short range specialists makes them useless in long range cover to cover skirmishes against grens and MG42. Only those long tanks/pick-up truck/sandbags green covers can actually fit a whole squad of 5 models (hence why volks have sandbags).
rifles are not short range specialists, they are goodd at all ranges but will lose to specialists. it sounds like you issue lies more in not understanding the facrtion or unit roles. USF is able to, and expected to, adapt to the enemy strat. if they are using lonmg range units you close, if they are using close range units, sit inm cover and trade favorably.
Most green cover objects will deceive you and you'll get insta suppressed, or you'll lose that one model very quickly. That + the fact that tank traps are completely unreliable really shows why USF is seldom played in higher ranks and why you really need to put a lot more micro into your gameplay to win teamgames. Retarded map design coupled with rifles being only good on close range (exceptionally good, but so are pios/spios)
ay yes, its definitely the game that is screwing you, especially when you ignore closing SMG infantry while shooting at other targets...


So in the end, REs don't really have early game utility. They don't have late game utility in the form of mine planting. Their only real utility is the fact that they can carry double zooks, which can be used defensively against tank dives.
if you ignore everything else you are right! they can repair, recrew, get an extra model, get smoke, can build fightijng pits, and then fire nades from them over sight blockers. they get cheap minbes that can paint the map, they can be adapted into AT or AI, depending on your needs. they are a great and versatile tool, and exactly what USF needs without overlapping with rifles, who are your fighting unit And it's not like those zooks are free on them. It still costs 100 Muni and can often mean that you won't be able to plant doctrinal mines or use other abilities as much as you would want
yes, this is how in game economies work. A0 means less of B0. build a cahce (using RE!) if you feel you need more muni. If they had a 10 muni smoke that doesn't require teching, codguy? is that you? then all would be well, but they don't. They are not only useless early game, they are not very useful later on as well (let's be honest, how many times zooks penetrate on anything tougher than a flakpanzer, if they even hit). evrything in this game is RNG, RNG wills it and the enemy tank loses 200hp. nobody will risk that. outside tanks, zooks can be used on many targets and are always worthwile to have at least 1 sq uad floating around with them, why not the squad that cant fight infantry well?


I know a lot about RE zooks as in 90% of games I play the heavy cavalry and I do have double Rear echelon in late game with 4 zooks (repair and anti dive). Trust me, if you plant mines with rifles, you won't have for the zooks, nor will you have if you decide to use WP from howitzers or nades/snares. Average muni income is 35/min in 3v3s on a good day... Good luck.maybve USF needs some cheraperer mines to help offset the price of weapon upgrades then....

Jump back to quoted post18 Jan 2022, 23:31 PMKepler

Im so sick of this unit that gets played... every... game.
Thx balance team.