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Thread: Soviets are OP1 Dec 2018, 19:07 PM Jump back to quoted post1 Dec 2018, 18:33 PMthedarkarmadillo I've suggested something similar in the past. They don't need a weapon upgrade but they need some way to improve cost effectiveness like other factions can. Cons being lesser troops but capable of an almost global scaling I think is perfect for thir intended role and if they get cheaper (knock 1mp off their reinforcement per tier too if you ask me) they can lose their stupid strong massive RA buff at vet 3 which also makes ppshs less OP... Also @smashface I agree penals are problematic but they are unfortunately necessary as long as cons are hopelessly out matched and outscalled by all infantry that 50% of the factions Soviet will face can field. And iirc the satchel is 45mu not 30. And the satchel has a 3 second fuse and nearly point blank range, you shouldn't be losing squads to it seeing as you can hop in and out faster than Chinese food goes through you. depends if its a setup team. they cant always tear down fast enough, and a GOOD soviet, throws the charge at a buildings doorway so it catches you as you leave. itll still one shot the buildings in its aoe, so youre most likely going to get crushed. - oh, and the bigger issue imo is the one shotting buildings, caches and whatnot. the other broken ass thing, is that soviets DONT pay tech costs with specific doctrines, combined with the strength of t70s and the soviet dominance in t1, it just snowballs out far, far too fast. when i say they dont pay tech, i mean they dont NEED to anyway. As in, you can CALL IN t-34s with a variety of good doctrines, which are perfectly valid, actually strong, midgame tanks. as WM, i have to pay tech costs to get anything on that level....and not cheap ones either. 90 fuel to hit t2, then 15 for the building? so you SHOULD always have map control, and therefore more tanks than me, especially after dominating t1 with penals. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Soviets are OP1 Dec 2018, 15:32 PM For context, i was top 300 ostheer - but im now on a big losing streak against soviets, prompting this post. Im not sure why people are trying to claim that conscripts underperform against axis infantry. as a mainly Wehr player, i dont find that my grens roll over conscripts easily in tier 1, the fight is roughly 50/50 and is largely decided by cover and bullet rng....which is exactly as it should be. you can argue that standard grens scale better into the late game with upgrades....but then you take a look at PPSH and the abominations that become terminator conscripts - if you want to specialise in conscripts that is. the pacing for soviet vs wehr is supposed to be that soviets have a slight edge in the early game, and thats fine. Whats NOT fine - is penal battalions. And im not sure why someone would even try to argue the case on that. In the last 5 days, ive played something close to 25 soviets, 4 brits, and approx 7-8 usf. The soviets are heavily over-represented due to their having a relatively low skill cap on early-mid dominance. The real actual issue with penals though, is not their combat performance. As someone has corrected stated, you can basically have 3 grens vs 2 penals (720 vs 600), in tier 1 and it balances out somewhat. the problem i have, is with their utility. The two elements that are too strong, are the extremely easy upgrade to AT vs light vehicles with their rifles, and the bigger issue - The satchel charge is far too strong. The satchel one shots any squad squarely hit by it. and any building, or any squad inside a building, including caches. This effectively means penals, by their existence alone, DENY you the ability to cache/tech up fast enough to face the inevitable t70 with your own vehicles. You can try to hide and defend the caches sure, but this means you must never...ever...fall back...and that you concede the rest of the map. if you have to fallback, which any competant or evenly matched player can force eventually, then you WILL lose your cache. he only needs to move 1 squad and spend 30 muni to cause the same economic damage as a full squad wipe. The presence of penals too, also shuts down the ability to be aggressive with light vehicles. people say "oh, but i cant use my satchel against a well microed light vehicle." and youre right. except....the mere threat of the satchel charge 1 shotting my halftrack or heavily damaging any vehicle with GUARANTEED engine damage, zones you out of certain locations dependant on terrain. This is also not ok. Imagine if panzerfausts, which are exclusively AT and dont have the huge aoe or versatility that a satchel does, had GUARANTEED engine damage and the same damage as a penals satchel. whats the justification? the range on the satchels isnt that different to a faust, and the muni difference is 5? Grens also dont get AT rifles to boot? The thing that really pushed me over the edge with regards to the satchels, was when i got cheesed by a guy who, in tier 1, made 1 penal squad and a transport truck. drove to my base, and kept satchel charging the BASE BUNKERS. these base bunkers get one shot for the bargain price of 30 munitions. If i dont rebuild the bunkers, youre in for a base rape when you fallback, as he can commit to a combined arms push of your base. if i DO rebuild the bunkers, im spending 150/60, AND wasting my pioneer/grenadiers time to counter a 30 muni expense? Penal battallions are just too versatile. In: COH2 Balance

Thread: Soviets are OP1 Dec 2018, 19:07 PM

1 Dec 2018, 18:33 PMthedarkarmadillo

I've suggested something similar in the past. They don't need a weapon upgrade but they need some way to improve cost effectiveness like other factions can. Cons being lesser troops but capable of an almost global scaling I think is perfect for thir intended role and if they get cheaper (knock 1mp off their reinforcement per tier too if you ask me) they can lose their stupid strong massive RA buff at vet 3 which also makes ppshs less OP...

Also @smashface I agree penals are problematic but they are unfortunately necessary as long as cons are hopelessly out matched and outscalled by all infantry that 50% of the factions Soviet will face can field.
And iirc the satchel is 45mu not 30. And the satchel has a 3 second fuse and nearly point blank range, you shouldn't be losing squads to it seeing as you can hop in and out faster than Chinese food goes through you.

depends if its a setup team. they cant always tear down fast enough, and a GOOD soviet, throws the charge at a buildings doorway so it catches you as you leave. itll still one shot the buildings in its aoe, so youre most likely going to get crushed. - oh, and the bigger issue imo is the one shotting buildings, caches and whatnot.

the other broken ass thing, is that soviets DONT pay tech costs with specific doctrines, combined with the strength of t70s and the soviet dominance in t1, it just snowballs out far, far too fast. when i say they dont pay tech, i mean they dont NEED to anyway. As in, you can CALL IN t-34s with a variety of good doctrines, which are perfectly valid, actually strong, midgame tanks. as WM, i have to pay tech costs to get anything on that level....and not cheap ones either. 90 fuel to hit t2, then 15 for the building? so you SHOULD always have map control, and therefore more tanks than me, especially after dominating t1 with penals.

In: COH2 Balance

Thread: Soviets are OP1 Dec 2018, 15:32 PM

For context, i was top 300 ostheer - but im now on a big losing streak against soviets, prompting this post.
Im not sure why people are trying to claim that conscripts underperform against axis infantry. as a mainly Wehr player, i dont find that my grens roll over conscripts easily in tier 1, the fight is roughly 50/50 and is largely decided by cover and bullet rng....which is exactly as it should be.

you can argue that standard grens scale better into the late game with upgrades....but then you take a look at PPSH and the abominations that become terminator conscripts - if you want to specialise in conscripts that is.

the pacing for soviet vs wehr is supposed to be that soviets have a slight edge in the early game, and thats fine. Whats NOT fine - is penal battalions. And im not sure why someone would even try to argue the case on that.
In the last 5 days, ive played something close to 25 soviets, 4 brits, and approx 7-8 usf. The soviets are heavily over-represented due to their having a relatively low skill cap on early-mid dominance.

The real actual issue with penals though, is not their combat performance. As someone has corrected stated, you can basically have 3 grens vs 2 penals (720 vs 600), in tier 1 and it balances out somewhat.
the problem i have, is with their utility.

The two elements that are too strong, are the extremely easy upgrade to AT vs light vehicles with their rifles, and the bigger issue - The satchel charge is far too strong.

The satchel one shots any squad squarely hit by it. and any building, or any squad inside a building, including caches. This effectively means penals, by their existence alone, DENY you the ability to cache/tech up fast enough to face the inevitable t70 with your own vehicles. You can try to hide and defend the caches sure, but this means you must never...ever...fall back...and that you concede the rest of the map. if you have to fallback, which any competant or evenly matched player can force eventually, then you WILL lose your cache. he only needs to move 1 squad and spend 30 muni to cause the same economic damage as a full squad wipe.

The presence of penals too, also shuts down the ability to be aggressive with light vehicles. people say "oh, but i cant use my satchel against a well microed light vehicle." and youre right. except....the mere threat of the satchel charge 1 shotting my halftrack or heavily damaging any vehicle with GUARANTEED engine damage, zones you out of certain locations dependant on terrain. This is also not ok. Imagine if panzerfausts, which are exclusively AT and dont have the huge aoe or versatility that a satchel does, had GUARANTEED engine damage and the same damage as a penals satchel. whats the justification? the range on the satchels isnt that different to a faust, and the muni difference is 5? Grens also dont get AT rifles to boot?

The thing that really pushed me over the edge with regards to the satchels, was when i got cheesed by a guy who, in tier 1, made 1 penal squad and a transport truck. drove to my base, and kept satchel charging the BASE BUNKERS. these base bunkers get one shot for the bargain price of 30 munitions. If i dont rebuild the bunkers, youre in for a base rape when you fallback, as he can commit to a combined arms push of your base. if i DO rebuild the bunkers, im spending 150/60, AND wasting my pioneer/grenadiers time to counter a 30 muni expense?

Penal battallions are just too versatile.

In: COH2 Balance