Your comment was already addressed in my comment above yours. Before you call out "axis fan clubs" you should read everyone's comments. Dismissing all counter arguments as axis favored is foolish. Clearly the unit was broken, may still be, but we are trying to find a solution to it short of removing it from the game.
The long term health of COH2 demands all players seek to make the game balanced not give one uber unit to a side until the other side is weaker.
QFT. The design where the ISU countered the entire Axis armies until the Jagdtiger stomped it was awful. Heaven forbid you are playing as Ostheer and have no way to efficiently counter it.
Whenever the rest of the Soviet arsenal is OK is another debate. But it's definitely not an excuse to let the faction have a silly OP unit at all.
Also, sorry to say it, but team games will always be extremely hard to balance, and 4v4 has never been even remotely balanced in any RTS in history. |
It is amazing how people consider obers op forgeting there are other units fielded by armies not affected by any resource penalties, that can be countered by vehicles only also. What about shock troops? Yes, they are close range units, but that is why they have that armor and the smoke grenade. They are as effective as obers there is no doubt about it, still you are crying a river of tears about obers. They were nerfed once, ok, that was needed. But now?! This is an exageration. What is this hate against everything OKW has?
Once and for all, admit that soviets are the easiest way to victory, not OKW. OKW is comming second. All these whinings about OKW OP units and soviet "weak" units are ridiculous.
Except Obers do not suffer from the penalty in any way. 400 mp for OKW is the same as 400 mp for anyone else. That's why they at least needs a muni cost on their LMG from hell.
And as someone who uses both units, shocks are not in the same league; not only are they doctrinal, they are short-ranged and require the use of smoke and micro all the time to properly use against good player. Obers? against anything but a big blob or a tank, a-move and automatically win. They can't do anything to tanks, but OKW has extremely good anti-tank in all their tiers as well as shrecks on their basic squad, while Obers are all the anti-infantry firepower they will ever need. |
I partly agree with OP on some of the issue
But about Obers - on the face of it they may seem OP. They are certainly more powerful than other infantry units in the game. But:
A) 2 Riflemen with bars can also stand in front of an MG and wipe it and they come at T0 + 15 fuel + muni for BARs. That's much sooner than Obers
B) They come in a faction with mo medium tank (equiv to PIV or T34) that can hurt inf+tanks. You can choose a puma or jagd or panther but there's no anti-inf tank tha can stand up to tanks too.
C) there are other vehicles for anti-inf in OKW but with the 66% fuel rate, it's not possible to get both anti-inf and anti-tank. So Obers are a soft filler for that role.
With respect (seriously, I mean that), I think if you tried some more games as OKW, you'd see how other players handle Obers and get some ideas. And you'd possibly change your opinion a little about them being OP.
I went through the same thing with american units that annoyed me. I played amis and realised they weren't so special and there are counters available.
Thing is, OKW don't lack for anti-infantry even without Obers.
Sturmpios are still powerful. They still get a mobile suppression platform. Volks are still very tough with a free grenade. 3 doctrines have powerful elite infantry, and a fourth a cheap MG. The Flak HT is a terror now. They can also easily lock down a sector against infantry with the T4 building. Luchs, when well microed, is really good too. And it's not like these two vehicles are incredibly expensive, a Flacktrack + Puma combo beats anything until the doctrinal mediums/heavies roll out.
When I play OKW, I very rarely get Obers, because I don't need them. Your other core units can very well beat allied infantry; Obers are just the overkill that allows you to effortlessly pound them into dust and force the allied player(s) to get AI vehicles just to counter your 400mp no muni no fuel supersoldiers. That's just stupid design, sorry. At the very least, Obers should need to invest munitions to get their all-powerful MG34, and IMO their LMG should be nerfed at long range along with every other LMG in the game.
And dammit, the lack of medium tanks is no excuse for OKW having superunits. They got the Puma, which any other faction would kill to have. They got shrecks on basic infantry. They got the best turretless TD in the game. They access a Panther far earlier than Ostheer. The faction is designed to work around that weakness; it doesn't need to also have nigh-invincible supersoldiers on top of that. Especially since Obers are not affected by the ressource penalty in any way. |
err no, try 120 and most of the time there is T2 vehicles with fuel... so much more than 80.
OKW starts with 40 fuel. First truck is thus free. T4 is 80 fuel. So they need to accumulate 80 fuel. To put it that way, when Ostheer unlocks PGrens and 222, OKW rougly unlocks Obers. Balance! |
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They are still OP as fuck. Coming after 80 fuel accumulated is not really lategame, and they rape anything but blobs or well used Shocks effortlessly. Like, if something is on foot and cannot directly counter them, they will cut the squad down to size in seconds. They're a horribly designed unit that's too cheap for what it does, especially given that they cost no ammo whatsoever while all other LMG squads do, hell if they want their LMGs to perform up to par USF needs to sink 120 ammo in a doctrinal unit, or 140 ammo on doctrinal LMGs.
And yeah, LMGs in general still overperform by being too good at range. Lower their long range DPS, rifles and carbines should be the weapon of choice at this. An alternative would be that their DPS against cover is further reduced, making placement and micro good vs them. |
It's fun to see how the axis fan are thrashing. Try the ISU, try the Soviets for a time and tell me that everything is fine... The ISU is not fun to play as it is now and it doesn't worth it's cost at all. But i would still take a Jagdtiger anytime as it is. Why that strange....
Why They nerfed the ISU ? Because there is much more German players, that mean there would be a lot more German player crying loudly so they had to nerf something. The closest equivalent was the ISU.
They have 2 choices either they revert the ISU152 or they have to improve the other soviets tanks, else the allies will be weaker that they were.
But the Jagdtiger case is different, it's still a beast so it's ok to stay like that. More, the German faction's fan anyway seem to like that way of playing. So Relic plz for them don't revert the Jadgtiger.
Thanks !
The only biased person here is you. I play all factions, Soviets are my most played and favorite, and the ISU was incredibly overpowered as well as being a bullshit unit. There is no defending it. |
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Damn, OP, welcome to like 8 months ago. |
Sierra is absolutely not a troll. Having met the guy in teamspeak and playing a few games with him I can say that with certainty. He really truly believes everything he is saying.
He also told me that he doesn't view game balance discussions as a means to achieve a fair game, but a means to convince the devs to tip the odds in favor of your favorite faction.
A quick look at his player card and steam profile reveals that he's quite experienced with the game (several hundred hours) but not particularly skilled and extremely biased. No surprises there.
So what you end up with are his arguments, many of which are perfectly valid but get undermined by his tone, intent, and outright delusions. Sadly because of this we end up with a lot of equally invalid counter-arguments, most of which are ad hominem.
Arguing with him is therefore a complete and total waste of time. It can't accomplish anything.
Not sure if being willfully delusional is better or worse than being a troll, however. |
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I like Relic and I do think they're putting effort into this game, but to me 43$ (canada) is simply not worth a single-player campaign. I gladly would pay that for an xpac containing WFA + AA, and even a little more besides, but as a stand-alone 30$ is the absolute maximum I would even pay for one campaign, regardless of how good it is. As it stands if you want WFA and AA separately it costs you more than the full CoH2 game cost you at release. That's not a very good pricing policy. WFA was worth 24$. AA is not worth 43$. Simple as that to me.
Plus, it's an extremely busy week for games. WoW xpac, Far Cry 4, Dragon Age Inquisition among others all release November 18 or near it. I'm gonna buy the last two, and wait on a price drop for AA. |
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Volks are fragile? The same volks that get 60% received accuracy and become damn near immune to small arms fire? As well as having Shrekcs on basic infantry and a free grenade? Yeah sure.
My MG42s suppress stuff just fine. Of course you need to micro and support it, but it does its job very well.
JLI rock. These guys cut down anything short of Shocks down to size in a hurry.
And heaven forbid OKW gets a doctrine that's not that great. Every faction does. It's not like they have a non-doctrinal superheavy, right?
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