Thread: Ostheer8 Dec 2015, 15:38 PM
-MGs are your friends. All 3 allied factions will outnumber you with infantry, don't be afraid to extend T1 a bit and get a 2nd MG to stabilize the frontline. On urban maps, a mortar might be useful instead, the Ost mortar is a killer.
-Keep grens in pairs against USF/UKF. They will more or less always lose 1v1 fights on their own, you don't want that.
-Use your starting pioneers! Can't tell you how many times sneaking in a pio squad helped tip the balance. Their DPS is acceptable up close, so try to have them support your grens early game.
-Move your MGs. If you see a smoke grenade, pack up immediately and repostition further back. If you see Ooorah'd conscripts and can't reposition in time, retreat. Losing your MGs is a death sentence.
-Consider getting PGrens if the early game went well. They can take some hits and unlike Grens can win 1v1 engagements, and also plug Ostheer's weakness in urban maps.
-Panzer 4 is only worth it if you comfortably won the early game. Otherwise getting a Stug is more prudent. You might hurt on anti-infantry a bit more but a properly supported Stug can tackle anything short of Jacksons or Comets. A pair of properly used Stugs can handle any single allied tank.
-If you start to fall behind, take territory one at a time. Have your MGs in an overlapping field of fire. The longer you're driven off from the field, the more muni your opponent has to fuel the doomblob and the more fuel they have for the medium tank onslaught. Better hold on to 50% of the map comfortably, than try to hold on to 70% and get beaten back by a strong push. |
Missing the point entirely. AT and AT snare on same unit is a bad idea. It creates units that can single handedly kill everything vehicle based.
Also... if you think someone deserves to lose a tank when getting in snare range... what about uc in faust range?
Sure, because Guards and bazooka rifles have been OP for so long, have they? The point stands. If you let an infantry unit with AT snare then kill your vehicle, you deserve to lose it. And yes, that also works with the UC, or a Sherman dying to Grens who picked up a shreck, or any other vehicle. Not that anyone even builds the UC anymore since it handles like a pile of bricks with an engine strapped on but still.
I'd rather see brits get a snare than buff the AEC truth be told. But something has to be done. OKW can get away with having no snare on non-doctrinal units because all their mainline infantry can run around with shrecks very fast. Brits do not have that luxury, on top of their handheld AT being shit. Give Sappers an AT nade after the upgrade has been researched and voila, problem solved while not creating faction homogenization. |
Everyone was praising the patch and the patch preview around these here parts.
More than a few "OMG JESUS PATCH THANKS RELIC" posts.
Honestly, they got a shit ton of positive feedback from people about the patch note. They also got positive results from the survey.
It's amazing how much the community flip flopped on a patch that they even helped design. (Relic listened to the containment thread about OKW)
You all are going to pretend that you always knew the patch was going to be shit, but one only need look at some posts from last month to see all the praise they were giving out. Obviously not everyone agreed, but I find it pretty funny to see posts like yours claiming everyone knew it was going to be bad. We were in the minority of posters, the vast majority of people thought these OKW changes were great.
That's not my experience. The thread where the test notes were released already coined the term ''OPKW'', as we see not without reason. Most certainly not everyone was praising the patch once they thought a bit about the implications of the OKW ''overhaul'' being pretty much a straight buff of everything they have at once.
I certainly thought the UKF nerfs went too far (despite arguing for them being clearly OP at release) and the OKW buffs were ludicrous. So far I saw little that dispels those notions honestly. OKW in particular was overbuffed (Volks buff, popcap buff, much faster timings on their extremely potent vehicle arsenal, the damn Goliath), that much is crystal clear to me, and I don't expect the stats to change much in the coming weeks. Like the Brits, I have a feeling OKW will get an arrow in the knee in 1-2 months. |
IMO;
-KT gets a CP cost, and a call-in superheavy should.
-Panther either gets a small cross increase, or is an additional unlock from T4 truck to delay it a smidge.
-Popcap changes fixed so that OKW is in line other factions and doesn't get a lot more MP than anyone elses.
Once this is done, maybe we can look at Volks and some other vehicle timing if need be. |
If the other player invests 100+ ammo on a snare and PIATs (not counting the weapon unlock cost, too) and you let your lone medium tank unsupported as they get snared and then pelted, you deserve to lose that tank if you ask me. Assuming of course the Panzer 4 doesn't cut the lone sapper squad to ribbons even when snared.
Snare into double PIATs was far from a problem back when UKF sniper had its critical shot as I remember it. I get and support them losing that ability out of the gate, but it leaves UKF too exposed to light vehicles unless they shell out previous fuel for an AEC that is going to do nothing else. On top of all their problems with Volks being able to fight back against Tommies now, it makes UKF early game quite hard vs OKW.
And yeah, the Brumbar sucks, but that doesn't justify any other unit sucking as I said. Two wrongs don't make a right. |
both units have a purpose and do well at what they're supposed to do. especially the AEC has a decent window where there are no "hard counters" possible (AEC can easily run away from anything that could seriously threaten it when it hits the field).
as i've mentioned before, if the AEC/UC are "bad", what is the 222 or the 251 (ost halftrack)?
Some units being bad or having niche roles doesn't justify other units being bad or having too narrow a niche. The 222 does have a role as a soft AT target that can still hurt (and chase) infantry and is cheap as chips too boot, I build it in most of my games and I'd say it survives to get 6+ kills most of the time, and I,ve seen several vetted ones recently. The 221 could use a bit more speed or something but is a casualty of transports in this game just not being overly useful.
I've almost never seen an AEC amount to anything major, personally. At best they chase the Luchs off to another part of the map then run around doing nothing until forced off themselves by shrecks and P4s, because it has bad dmg against infantry and melts when facing mediums. I expect a bit more for a unit that requires its own specific tech and locks out the BOFORS.
Of course, I would have less issues with the AEC being mediocre if Brits had a reliable AT snare to keep the Luchs from happily running around. Say, on Sappers, if we need to avoid copying other factions. Or if the PIAT was actually worth something. |
Good thing they cost less money and arrive in the game a lot sooner then.
Eh? Shocks cost more than Obers and are doctrinal. Not if you include the LGM34, but LGM34 Obers also vastly outperform Shocks at anything by knife edge's range. 12 pop for Shocks is too much, 10 pop for IS is too much, 5 pop for Volks is too little. |
Rear Echelons have almost the same stats on their guns as Penals, but Penals cost more to build but have a lower reinforcement cost, so Rear Echelons are basically cheaper penals for USF, and yet they feel weak?
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1LOYMDi_XR7rILsk6HbAZqGihsk22t-45C_6NbQEP-m0/edit#gid=0&vpid=A1
And Penals are such a staple Soviets units, aren't they?
No they aren't, because they don't perform very well at all. Well, that and going T1 as SU is risky, but mainly because conscripts can more or less do everything Penals can cheaper and without having to tech. |
Changes take some time for people to adjust to. Especially extensive changes like what was done with OKW. All the tech timings being different throws people off.
So instead of freaking out about shit a handful of days after the patch, give people some time to adjust.
Lets do some math.
Shock troops = 6 man squad. 12 popcap = 2 popcap per squad entity
Bolstered section = 5 man squad. 10 pop cap = 2 popcap per squad entity
Obers = 4 man squad. 8 popcap = 2 popcap per squad entity.
Whoa.
Fucking why?
It already requires you to spend 45+25+50+120 fuel on tech, let alone 200 fucking whatever fuel on the KT itself.
It's barely ''new'' timings. Beyond the early game (because of their 10 starting fuel), it's just faster timings across the board with no nerfs of any kind. To say nothing of the new muni income that ensures every single Volks squad has shrecks and can chuck grenades. Doesn't require years of testing by the NASA to see that this is potentially problematic.
The maths don't reflect the reality that an Obers squad is about on par with a Shock squad yet the latter tanks your economy more, to say nothing of 5 pop Volks being stupid compared to 10! pop bolstered IS. As Acht says, popcap should better reflect unit value.
The KT is a superheavy that may cost a bundle, but even in a closer game can arrive at the 16-17 minute mark, even worse in team games. Sure, we shouldn't balance around team games and yadda yadda, but when something is that broken I feel it needs adjustments. Doesn't help that Volks are now powerful and versatile enough to somewhat hold the fort, along with the Flackstruck, to delay until the KT arrives and the asskicking begins. |
So it's the Pop-cap and not the 14min Panther, followed by a double stuka or KT? ... and not the ridiculous Volks spam at the beginning of each game?
From my view, the pop cap issue is just one of many reasons and not even the biggest one about OPKW.
One leads into the other. Those Panthers and stukas, plus trucks and such, require MP on top of fuel. OKW has always been a faction prone to floating MP, but now with the popcap issue and their buffed Volks it gets just silly, and over the course of a game their MP income will overshadow other faction's, especially SU and UKF, who are also more MP-dependant, resulting in the OKW player having more infantry, a bigger field presence (= more fuel) and being able to invest more manpower into teching and vehicles while the SU player is still trying his damnest to scrounge up the MP to reinforce his infantry, invest in his MP-intensive tech and build units.
Other things about OKW also need looking at (KT needs a CP cost, Panther needs some delaying mechanism, Shrecks must go from Volks if they have good rifles) but having a bigger pool of manpower than anyone else and such an absurd popcap limit definitely helps them a lot.
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