Why don't we just give it better machine guns at that point so its actually consistent rather than being a literal swing or miss machine against infantry and becoming Sherman 0.8?
I'm not talking about a general DPS increase, but a revamping of the MGs. Sure I may of made them have more DPS in my mod, but the T-34s MGs mainly suffer due to their poor accuracy and long cooldown. Boost the accuracy and reduce the cooldown on the MGs while altering its burst so its doing consistent damage rather than waiting 4-5 seconds to cooldown for rather unpredictable, but possibly high damage.
Also let's make its Vet 1 buff said machine guns 
I've always thought that, unless they are specialized anti-infantry vehicles such as the T-70 or Ostwind, tank's DPS against footsoldiers should come mainly from their MGs. Not only it is better for historical flavor, it would be more consistent. Right now, when their AI DPS comes from their guns, one time your Cromwell might kill 10 infantry in 4 shots, that other time it might kill 4 in 10 shots. The T-34 is even more unreliable in this regard. This might also help the problem of tanks likes IS-2s wiping out squads in one shot.
But it's too late to change that now, I suppose. I'd be happy with T-34s getting a small cost increase (to 90 fuel, say) and get more accuracy, pen and a better MG. |
trading a 300/80 tank for a tank that costs much more is not worth it? poor accuracy means nothing when your shooting and close or medium range. as i said before, you have to all in. you cant just peck away at long range and expect to do anything. what do you mean by lack of firepower? the tank has an average reload, and does the same damage as every other medium. the only bad factor would be its penetration.
sure you can play conservatively with su85, and just grind it out. however grinding out battles can be rather risky, and su85s are countered by elefants, mass pak40s, and jp4s. the whole point of doing a fast mass of t34s is to crush enemy axis armor one by one before they can achieve critical mass. literally every axis tank is more expensive than a t34, so trading 1 for 1 is always worth it, but youll never beat an axis tank 1v1 so thats why you need 2+
see most people want a tank that functions more as a typical panzer4-esque medium tank. decent armor, decent gun, good veterancy. the t34 is not that kind of medium tank. its a swarm unit. if you dont want to use it that way, dont use it at all. you can get a t34 85 that fits that role, or you can play passive and use the su85
also a quick note about your critique on ram, there is two uses for it and thats to hold an enemy tank in place. wether it be for other tanks to get around it, or for an offmap bombing run/artillery strike. its very dependent on where the tank your ramming is though, if its on the edge of the map the bombing run will come in much quicker than if the tank was in the middle of the map. another use is to finish off very low hp tanks. since the ram is a guaranteed 100 damage, you can use it to knockout tanks that are trying to get away. either way, its a really last ditch thing and i dont often use it myself.
The problem is that to even unlock the T-34 you need to get to the top end of the tech tree, which as Soviets costs a lot of MP. You then need to have 310 MP per tank; sure, 80 fuel is not much, but 310 MP very much is as Soviets. In a practical scenario, you'll be hard pressed to have more than 2 T-34s before the Axis heavies start rolling out and you really need to get those tanks to the frontlines, and a Tiger definitely solos 2 T-34s unless a lucky ram takes out its gun.
Sure, you can ''minimize bleed'' but if you can manage to minimize MP bleed, as Soviet, with few vehicles before the T-34s come, well you've outplayed your opponenent and are already winning. Plain and simple. As such, the T-34 is more or less a ''win more'' unit as I see it. It's never going to save you if you start being in trouble, a PaK wall and/or overlapping Stugs will crack it open in seconds. If you've driven the opponent off the field for most of the game, sure you can then swarm them easily because they don't have a defensive position. But not if they are dug in at all.
All the other uses of the T-34 are done better by other units. T-70 is a better infantry killer and flank harrassment unit. SU-76/85 are way better tank killers, and the former is decent against defensive positions as well. T-34/85 is well worth the added cost thanks to good armor and a good gun. There's a reason you barely see T-34s in gameplay, and it is not because Soviets are denying themsleves a good unit. |
Well not exactly. Baring the RNG of schreks, riles beat volks without upgrades at all ranges, assuming equals levels of vet and even more so when rifles are vet3. Bars and lmgs just make it even more favorable. I'd be more than happy to test this out with you if you wish.
The counter argument with zooks is fair because you can buy 2 for 100 munition, where a single schrek costs 90. So while the pen is less, you're doing 160 damage vs 120 and they fire faster, and they are on a squad that is more durable.
That's in theory.
In practice, the zook's pen is so shit that even against P4 it has trouble penetrating front armor (that's before vet and stacked bulletins). Anything Panther or bigger can safely ignore all but an entire blobful of zooks. Shrecks easily pen all but the very heaviest ally armor (IS-2, Churchill) on the front quite easily. Higher damage means little if you can't actually penetrate and use it.
2 zooks also sink a squad's DPS more than 1 zook or 1 shreck, so a rifle squad with 2 zooks will have mediocre DPS even at vet 3 against infantry. Wouldn't be surprised if vet 5 Volks with shrecks win vs vet 3 rifles with dual zooks.
And zooks are on one allied faction, behind an unlock. Soviets make do with PTRS which is doctrinal and sucks against anything but 222s, and british has the PIATs which you have to actively micro so they hit the broad side of a King Tiger, and even then it's a coin flip. Ostheer gets shrecks on a 340 MP 4 man tier 2 squad in an upgrade that changes their role dramatically, so that's very fine. OKW gets shrecks on their 250 MP 5 man mainline infantry and it's not even locked behind tech so there's no reason not to have every Volk squad with one as soon as you get the muni. It's not a role change, it is a straigth upgrade that allows Volks to be the most versatile infantry in the game, even more than Guards whose entire thing is to be versatile.
Handheld AT weapons are not balanced except by cost, and not very well at that. Perhaps by design, Shrecks are better than allied options in 90% of situations. There's a very good reason shreck blobs are a thing, while PTRS and PIAT blobs are never seen and zook blobs only work against bad players. The panzershreck is uncontestably the king of handheld AT. As such, it should be a specialized weapon with drawbacks. The Ostheer shreck acts like that. The OKW shreck doesn't. |
There are already alternatives for people who want to use 'true' medium tanks with soviets: T34/85s and Shermans.
The T34/76 is more of a hybrid tank. It combines some of the good and bad parts of light and medium tanks. It crushes light tanks (bar the puma, which is a tank hunter itself) and won't die instantly on the front line due to it's 640hp. It however can't mow down infantry like light tanks and it can't take on other medium tanks in long range front-to-front combat. It can however take on much more expensive enemy tanks when flanking. The T34/76 is priced accordingly for this role, as it is only 80 fuel. It is a cheap jack of all trades, master of none unit; which is perfect for the soviets as they have easy access to a large range of specialist vehicles.
As I see it, it mostly combines the bad parts of both. It can barely touch anything above PIVs unless the other player is comatose, is fragile, and its DPS against infantry is very RNG dependent. If you want a vehicle that can harrass the flanks, you are often better off getting a T-70. And no one in their right mind techs to get the T-34/76.
I mean sure, it is cheap and that's nice, but with the power creep that has been in place since WFA hits the tank doesn't really have a role anymore. It mostly serves as an annoyance that is locked behind very expensive tech. I'd really rather make it doctrinal and makes the T-35/85 baseline. |
Here you are, a better solution:
1. Remove shreck from volks. Instead, volks can chose one of these 2 upgrades:
a. An STG 44 for the squad leader.
b. Two g43s upgrade.
2. New OKW squad: Tank busters. A 4 man squad, buildable from Med Truck, with an expensive manpower cost and who comes with 2 shrecks by default. The expensive mp cost willprevent blobbing, and it will be fair too, because no amo will be spent on the shreck upgrade. Being expensive as mp cost, they can't be spammed and they will have a poor AI performance because they will have rifles, not automatic weapons, an additional reason not to spam them. This way, the OKW player can chose his early / medium game stage AT solution by building eather the med truck for this squad, eather the Puma tier to build a Puma.
Such units (puma or the tank busters, will most probably need a raketen to support them).
So this solution will invite OKW player not only to stop blobbing, but also used combined arms.
If you guys like this solution that was proposed before, let's support this and convince Relic to adopt it.
That would probably solve several problems, yes. Including OKW's sometimes chronical MP float.
The upgrades shouldn't be too powerful, however. Volks as they are have pretty decent AI power, and unlike Ostheer who needs LMGs to scale OKW has access to 2 powerful infantry in their tech, 5 if you count doctrines. At best Volks should have firepower about on par with Rifles with 1 BAR. If they want elite infantry they have a wealth of options other than Volks. |
It's something that should get adjusted once ukf receives other buffs. Currently the most (and really only) viable brit play relies on the quick Cromwell.
Very true. I always find myself thinking ''maybe I should get a BOFORS or an AEC?'' then decide that these units are so decidedly mediocre that manning it up until I can get a Cromwell for the shock value is a way better use of my fuel.
If the Cromwell needs any change in its timing or performance, it needs to come along a buff to UKF, especially their mid-game. |
Rework Firefly
- Nerf tulip. Less damage or make it only fire one rocket but cost less for the same cooldown.
- Increase rate of fire, so it's slightly slower than Jackson (0.5 or 1 second slower)
- Decrease shot damage to 160
- Increase penetration a fair bit
Basically, the Jackson and Firefly will be complementary TDs for different tasks, with the Jackson having better damage but lower penetration. The Jackson is better at hitting Mediums, while the Firefly is better at hitting heavies. The Firefly will also have more health and better armor, which along with (nerfed) tulips justifies its higher cost despite having worse DPS against mediums. This would also be "more realistic" in some sense, with the FF's 17 pounder being more effective at armor penetration, particularly with APDS, but using a smaller calibre shell (thus less damage per shot).
That is about what I had in mind. The Firefly as a long-range sniper of sorts with only decent but consistent DPS, while the Jackson is more of a flanker that deals absurd amounts of damage in the right situation. No need for role overlaps. And anyway the Comet fits the medium-range flanker niche for brits already.
Ironically the Firefly now is almost best used as a flanker, to ensure the expensive Tulip actually hits its target. Using it at max rnge runs the risk of the tank moving. |
100% this.
I dont get why everyone suddenly wants each faction to have units that perform exactly the same. The firefly is not and will never be a heavy hitting flanking tank destroyer like a Jackson or a wolverine. The firefly is powerful in its own way and plays uniquely, its like an elefant-lite with its weaknesses and strengths.
It can keep this role without having to rely on Tulips to do good damage. This isn't a zero sum game. I haven't seen anyone demanding it be turned into a Jackson, the upgrade should be a situational damage boost but not the entire point of the unit.
There's a reason you see far more Comets (in my experience). Tank destroyers that are only really useful when you have 100 ammo stockpiled are tank destroyers that cannot always do their job right, and thus inefficient. |
Now why the heck mgs are not working properly like, I don't know, VCOH?!?
Every MG in the game should do its job.
It was the same situation in vCOH. The US .30 cal was literally never built because it dealt almost no suppression and was supposed to "deal damage". Problem is, an MG that can't suppress is just an immobile infantry squad that you can easily flank and kill no matter how much damage it deals. The model simply doesn't work unless you go the Maxim route and make it setup in half a second.
It's also why the MG42 is the best in both games by a significant margin, unless we're talking about building vs building scenario which is niche enough not to really matter. That's not a problem, but there's really no reason for the Vickers to be 280 mp and the .50 cal to require teching IMO. |
I think the Cromwell is fairly strong, and that's alright. But it's too cheap for its performance - 340/110 vs. 350/125 for an Ostheer PIV, while being just as good, if not better.
Take a look at the stats:
http://stat.coh2.hu/squad.php?filename=cromwell_mk4_75mm_squad_mp
http://stat.coh2.hu/squad.php?filename=panzer_iv_squad_mp
The PIV has stronger armor (180/90 vs. 160/80) and better MGs. The Cromwell has a smaller target size (18 vs. 22), faster max speed, acceleration and rotation along with higher moving accuracy (0.75 vs. 0.5) and higher penetration (135/120/105 vs. 120/110/100), as well as lower scatter.
Based on that, I would say the Cromwell is at least as good as the Panzer IV, so it should cost as much. I don't think a slightly increased fuel cost (+10-15) would hurt.
Having stronger armor vs factions that (usually) have less penetration on their AT is not a negligible advantage. For instance, a Cromwell needs to flee from shrecks unless it's a lone one that it can crush. Whereas a PIV can facetank several zooka or PTRS squads for a while. Combined with a blitzkrieg that doensn't require teching cost and (doctrinally) the best OHSHIT ability in the game in the form of instant smoke, and I feel the PIV is much more survivable than a Cromwell when I use it.
I'd accept a 10 fuel cost increase, maximum, and more to delay the Cromwell than because of its performance. The tank feels fine to me. |
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