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Here is what i noticed, early game allies have better mainline inf so can generally do better early on, unless an OST player has good mg42 play, but axis hav better elite inf (obers, falls, pgrens, pfussies g43 etc.). Panthers shut down allied med tank plays but idk what the guy above is talking about "homogeneous" panthers, when panthers get completely shut down by allied 60 range TD's. And when it comes to artyfest, this without a doubt allies have the edge. |
And now we've run the full circle.
CHEAPEST infantry will perform WORST, ESPECIALLY with BEST support weapons next to them if you REFUSE to use these support weapons.
If you still don't get it, tell me, I'll get some crayons and try to explain it to you again.
ahh so now you want to bring in support weps, something every other faction has access to also. Grens simply dont support ther motors and mg42's effectively enough, HENCE why ostheer struggles. I do not know why you keep rambling on about balance WHEN YOU DON'T EVEN PLAY THE GAME. So instead of sprouting ur usual nonsense, play the latest patch as ostheer then comeback and talk, srsly its ridiculous. |
Except, it IS used in large portion of games.
You literally are talking about 2-3 players.
240mp60mun inf will not perform as well as 280mp120mun + 250mp and 40fuel in side costs one, yes, what did you expected here again? Its called balance.
Cons were always fine in early game.
They ALWAYS had SCALING problem WITHOUT doctrine that gave them weapon upgrade.
In case you still don't see the absolute stupidity of your argument, imagine that LMG42 is exclusively doctrinal and stock you have nothing but fausts and grenades to help you in combat - THAT is what was con problem.
EXACTLY, cons problem was they got wrecked in the lategame but were fine in the early game. Grens right now, gets wrecked at ALL stages of the game, early, mid and late game. |
1) There is this thing called META people tend to use. Consequence of META is units that are being fine may not be used, because they are not THE very best choice at high end game. But that's a problem vast majority of playerbase does not have.
2) You have plenty of top players using grens just fine, they simply don't spam them.
3) Grens are cheapest mainline infantry with no side costs and best support teams surrounding them from the get go - don't expect them to go toe to toe with anything stronger then conscripts, because they are most certainly not meant to.
1.) if units are fine they would be part of meta, how could a MAIN LINE INF not being used in a large portion of games mean that they are fine.
2.) Cuz ther the only main line inf that cant be spammed cuz they suck.
3.) its funny, that was the same excuse ppl used for cons and why they sucked and you were against the same reasoning which now you yourself is using for grens, what a hypocrite. |
big brain tl;dr;
2 Tommies and smoke = Big Brain combined arms
2 clicks for smoke, 2 for gammons = Big Brain Micro
dont be surprised too see him defending this. but srsly, how did he mention soviet engineer demo charge on OKW shwere ? lol, clear example of someone who has no clue about the game |
The reason why grens have struggled over the last 2 patches is due to the uncalled for rifle buffs and the OP 7man upgrade. Now cons, in theory, should be balanced, but now still struggle vs rifles and now the new terminator sections. Grens themselves are fine.
The whole reason why bal team made 7man cons so OP in the first place was due to volks being OP. It certainly wasn't because they struggled vs grens. Rifles also struggled early game vs volk cost efficiency. EVERYONE called for volk nerfs and nobody not even codguy called for rifle buffs. But the bal team...... the things they do will surprise you. When there is a CLEAR offending unit, they decide to change everything else around it. SMH. And for the infinite time, I'm gonna sound like a broken record, the rifle (and tOtALLy iNtenTIonAL officer) buffs came at the expense of Ost getting fucked over and not just grens were affected but agrens were also noticeably impacted as well as the assgren - rifle matchup balance was standing on a razor's edge.
If the bal team simply gave volks a REAL nerf (ie. remove sandbags and shift 0.9 RA vet 1 bonus to vet 2) There would be no need for rifle buffs or 7man cons, or at least not with the combat bonuses on top of the extra man) And "balance" would be in a much better state.
but they did nerf volks, volks wer so good because they could outnumber and could swarm your enemy. But the balance team made the same mistake relics been making for years which is nerfing unit A (volks) and then buffing unit B (Rifles) making the imbalance flip to the other side.
One other reason why ost, especially grens struggle vs USF is also due to the performance of the pack howie, it boggles my mind how this unit hasnt been addressed in this patch |
Free medkits at t4 wouldnt really effect much. And I really don't like the idea of breaking the formula for reinforcement will nilly. Units that have to assault are one thing, but units designed to sit behind cover and have the advantage of being as far away from a fight as they can be doesn't feel right. We should be trying to stick as close to the established rules as we can lest there be no order at all that catch on (see ungrades that have literally no negative to them whatsoever for details)
I'd sooner look at the things that make grens feel weak from the other side and look at them. Why to grens feel weak against rifles? Why do they feel weak against Tommie? Why do they feel weak against soviet infantry?
If we can find a common denominator then we buff that aspect of grens, if there are certain scenarios against certain allied infantry we adjust the allied infantry.
I agree with vipper that we need a baseline else we have no bounds to what gets buffed and when we need a nerf.
And I agree further that is should be ost as they, being EFA have all the tools a faction needs stock AND has an all inclusive tech (no branching paths) which gives us a solid baseline for timing.
We don't need to reinvent the wheel, just realign it.
I dont think you have to buff grens, this would be non stop power creep. Tommies need to have ther changes reverted, vickers should get a suppression buff in its vet somewhere (late games becomes hard to suppress squads) and give UKF a non doc motor. UKF weakness had nothing to do with tommies. Plus they now have CQC squad too. USF inf is definitely the most powerful of them all, but USF infantry is designed to be like that, and they don't have access to non doc elite inf like Pgrens or obers and, which is why they may have to stay OP like the jackson. The only thing i will look at for riflemen is not allowing double Bars. |
Well that is the biggest issue. Ostheer's power level in teamgames is excellent and Grens are fine when it's easy to back them up with 1-2 HMG 42s and Pioneers on a smaller piece of map where fights are more concentrated, or when you have a 251 or an OKW Battlegroup on the front lines for forward reinforcing. Ostheer teamgames performance is the reason why they haven't been getting any straight up buffs because it'd risk breaking the faction in those modes.
Any change has to be checked against all modes and that's where straight up Gren (or Ostheer) buffs run into a wall.
If there are going to be any changes they'd have to be smart changes that don't straight up increase the power level but rather influence things like momentum, so that they wouldn't influence the other modes as much. So for example I would think about something like adding a 150mp/15fu medics upgrade to the HQ (but keeping the medic bunker so players can choose what to invest) so that Ostheer no longer needs munitions for medics, so Grens can get their LMG 42s faster, as the upgrade really helps their early-mid game but isn't overly available right now because Ostheer needs to spend a lot of munitions on healing and tellers.
Before the patch, UFK was also powerful in team games, but they still got ther buffs which made them more powerful, yet somehow that doesn't apply here. All factions are more powerful in team games when they are concentrated on a small area on the map not just ostheer, that statement is ridiculous. TBH, out of all factions in team games, ostheer inf struggles the most in the late game, grens and support weps begin to get deleted much easier due to ther squad sizes. |
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IS buffs should be reverted and bloster should be reworked (elchino7 had great idea)and i still dont get why they get ther 25% increased cap rate too. Don't know why riflemen got close range buff. Grenadiers are okay, maybe just need slightly increase in long range performance and decrease in reinforce cost to make them bleed less.
grens should be weak on close range so i wouldn't buff ther mid/close range because You have to keep in mind, as OST they have access to Pgrens which can fill the gap for ther mid to close range engagements |
USF: (3 Nerfs, 1 Buff)
- Pershing Nerfed
- USF Airdropped Combat Group Manpower from 350 to 380
- M36 Jackson Armor from 130 to 110
+ USF Grenade Pack from 150 to 100
OST: (2 Nerfs, 9 Buffs)
- Tiger nerfed
- Fragmentation Bombs delay increased from 2 to 4s and speed decreased 275 to 175
+ Ost teching fuel costs moved to to Tiers
+ Ost T4 now reduces reinforce cost of Pioneers, Grenadiers, and Osttruppen
+ Ost T4 now reduces reinforce cost of team weapons by 10%
+ Ost T4 now increases Cap and Decap rates of all Ost infantry by 25%
+ Pak40 Horizontal tracking improved from 12 to 14
+ Brummbar Armor from 240 to 260
+ Panzerfaust consistency improved
+ LeFH18 population from 15 to 13
+ Puma tech requirement removed, built from HQ, requires 5 CPs
I'd really love to know how someone reads these patch notes and comes to the conclusion that there is bias AGAINST Ost.
Pack howie, jackson, scott, barely touched units. "buff" alone is very vague word and alot of these buffs to OST are minuscule changes in reality. We can look at this patch and say well grens and sections have been buffed. But in reality one has been considerably better buffed then the other something your choosing to be ignorant about, so now lets stay on topic and not derail any further |
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