But in 3v3, on a lot of maps we just get stomped. The More OKW, the worse it usually gets.
Could you be a bit more specific about how these games look like?
- Poor early-game map control due to flanking (e.g., such that MGs would help?)
- Being led into a stalling arty-fest vs OKW?
- Being overrun by early vehicles (e.g. Luchs)
- Lategame cheese? (Command Panther, Jagtiger)
From your collective build order, I would say that you suffer the most from lack of early aggression (no light vehicles, no squad upgrades). Learning how to use PIATs and losing that AT gun would help give you an edge. Do what it takes to keep the enemy team busy.
However, if you localize that your problems appear first in the early game, go double Vickers (it's a safe, but limiting strat, but it will get you started).
The UC is a good idea vs all-OKW, but only if you use it to push enemy squads around with it (don't waste any of your resources on UC upgrades; it never pays off).
What does your commander selection look like?
If you could link to a replay about how a "typical" stomping looks like, people would be able to give you better tips.
However, I think nerfs have to be creative to help retain the JT's potency in smaller team games. Here are some I propose, but I would like to hear other ideas that would balance it better for 3v3 and 4v4:
1) JT call-in cool down increased drastically (potentially up to 5-7 minutes or more)
2) JT range normalized to 17-pdr so it cannot outright counter a static unit
I would tend to agree that the nerfs have to be creative to keep the unit unique. I'm not sure that a cool-down nerf would help though. If I've managed to take a JT once (due to inattention), I'll probably manage to pull that feat off again.
Some other ideas:
- Make JT shots much louder and more distinct, so that nobody can 2-shot snipe tanks during a firefight.
- Increase JT scatter horizontal significantly, so that using smoke to close the distance becomes more viable.
(the smoke idea, with reservations; it might turn the JT into garbage)
I like how JT hardcounters 17 pounder emplacement.
That is all.
Even with a range nerf, the JT will have no issue hardcountering the 17 pounder. However, it might make the JT vulnerable, as it might have to take damage.
For the uninitiated, the Elefant (70 range) also hardcounters the 17 pounder (80). How? By outdpsing it of course. The Elefant has a good chance to bounce 17 pounder shots.
Bingo! Well, almost; the real culprit is the mappool selection process for these gamemodes.
When it comes to the 2v2 map selection, you have some maps that favour the JT (I'd imagine Minsk Pocket and Rails and Metal -- but I'm not a connoisseur), and several maps that don't.
Now compare this to the mappool selection for 4v4. Find me a single map (apart from La Gleize) that doesn't blatantly favour the Jagtiger. Thus, essentially:
- The Jagtiger is OP on certain types of maps
- The mappool selection of certain gamemodes consists almost entirely of such types of maps
- Ergo, the JT is OP on those gamemodes (i.e., due to the mappool selection process)
holy shit what a mess. So just to get it clear.
Vickers K have the same stats like the Tommy variation of the bren gun except the have a better aim time (.05 vs .1). So its better to equip Tommies with Vickers K. On the other hand Sappers and Commandos are better of with Brens from the weapon rack because they get a better version of the Bren gun compared to the Tommy one. Right?
Exactly!
And just to make matters a bit more complicated, when a Tommy/Sapper/Commando drops their Bren, it reverts back to the default Tommy version.
Thus, if you pick up a dropped Bren from the ground, you always get the crappiest variant
Again, plenty of other squads work like this too. Tommies are just unique in that they are the only squad that can get four slotted weapons consistently. (Except for maybe jaeger lights that pick up two weapons?)
Not quite.
Each of these weapon upgrades confers a significant bonus to the affected squads. Depending on the weapon, the squad gets:
- Better accuracy on the move (G43's)
- Superior short-range DPS (PPSH)
- Snipe-crit chance (Pathfinders, JLI)
- Anti-vehicle capabilities (PTRS, Boys AT)
- (apart from G43's on Stormtroopers/PGrens of course; if you tech them it's your own fault)
What is the exact bonus that SLEs are supposed to confer to the squad to justify their existence? A 10%-15% DPS increase in two models, with the same -75% accuracy-on-the-move penalty?
Moreover, the squads you are thinking of are either:
- Specialist units
- Main-line infantry with opt-in upgrades
In other words, it's supposed to be "your own damn fault" with those squads/upgrades. Instead, Tommies are supposed to act as the main line infantry of UKF. Bear in mind that Tommies:
- Have no AT snare
- Can tech for a grenade that is completely unsuitable for their long-range profile
- Their out-of-cover reload penalty prevents them from using AT weapons efficiently (even if we didn't have the Vet3 "feature" that is)
- Have absolutely terrible accuracy on-the-move
- Are the only source of healing for UKF (thus, having 2 Tommies is mandatory)
Without weapon upgrades, I struggle to see what is supposed to be Tommies' claim to relevance in the end-game.
PS: Double-Bren Tommies would probably be OP with their Vet3 "feature". However, I am sure that there are other ways to hamper their performance in other ways which are not so blatantly RNG-dependent.
If the item doesn't drop, it is stored until the squad is reinforced to have enough members to equip it.
This makes Tommy performance completely RNG-dependent the moment that they drop down to 3 men (or less); and there's nothing you can do to prevent it.
When that "feature" becomes addressed, Tommies might or might not have to get nerfed to compensate. Personally, I don't care. However, I do know that I cannot rely on a squad that is so inconsistent.
EDIT: Actually, I have two questions, regarding the modifications you propose:
1. What happens to the squad/squadmember if the Tommies happen to be carrying a weapon not in your exception list (e.g., a pilfered LMG42) when they reach Vet3
2. After the squad has reached Vet3, what happens if you try to recrew an abandoned team weapon with them (do they retain the original Enfield, or does the SLE carry along?)
Bravo
That's a nice, thorough and lazy (i.e., attractively easy to implement) approach that will fix the issue.
Here are some other equally-lazy options:
1. Completely remove SLE's from the game (if necessary, counteract with a small stats bonus)
2. Reduce the number of awarded SLE's to ONE, and buff its performance (that way, the SLE causing slot items to drop becomes justified)
Implementing weapon priorities would be the more thorough way to solve this
Weapons should be given priorities, so that higher-priority weapons overwrite lower-priority ones. I would envision the following 3 priority classes (from highest to lowest):
- Minesweepers
- Slot items (e.g., LMG42, Brens, Schrecks)
- Non-droppable weapons (e.g., G43's, PPSH, Scoped Lee-Enfield)
This would also solve a host of other issues in other squads in the game (e.g., G43 & Schrecks upgrade turning PGrens into pinatas, etc).
I am not a modder, but I suspect this might involve going deeper than the mod engine. For the reasons outlined in Svanh's signature, things might never be implemented that way.
PS: In case somebody suggests this: Simply reducing the chance for Tommies to drop weapons (in the same way that Guards were modified), will definitely not solve the problem. The whole crux of the problem is the following:
By saying, that Cons should be used for screening, it puts soviet player in a spot where he needs at least 2 kinds of mainline infantry (sometimes even 3 if Guards/Shocks) to get what's best from Penals. It's completly different than anyother faction. Rifles, Volks, Grens or Tommies don't need any screening. They just vet up and become better in terms of firepower and suravilibity. By using Cons and Penals together you put much more micro on soviets player.
Second thing, I can't imagine close combat units without rec. acc. bonus if that unit does not have camo/smoke/armor.
Shocks - smoke and armor.
Rifles - smoke and rec. acc.
Assault Grens - sprint at vet 0, no tech and superior close range.
I mean, with such approach we could easily take armor from shocks becase Cons shold do screening.
In other words, Im not convinced to your point.
I'll preface this post with the following:
1. I'm not an expert on weapon profiles
2. I've only tried the proposed Penals on the receiving end (when Miragefla kicked my arse when we played his mod)
I believe Miragefla's intention is to turn Penals into a unit that has access to 2 roles and excels only in that area, depending on whether or not the upgrade is purchased:
- Without purchasing the upgrade, Penals are pretty damn good long-range fighters. However, you need to screen for them with other troops, or you will bleed
- With the upgrade, Penals turn into budget shocks with a flamer (the intent of throwing the 3 PPSH's along with the flamer upgrade is so that we don't reintroduce the Rifle Company effect into the game). Thus, if you want flamers, Penals will have to give up their long-range DPS.
Now, with respect to intra-faction synergy, requiring that units of multiple types be present on the field should be viewed as design we should aim for.
Compare this to the following factions that require/force you out of spamming a particular type of unit:
- I don't think it is viable to spam Grens if you want to win a game
- You will bleed very hard if you only spam Tommies (more than 2-3 is a crowd); it makes sense to mix some Sappers in, since they are cheaper/more durable
Compare it to the WFA factions where it is not only viable, but it is the meta to face against:
- Rifle, Rifle, Rifle
- Volks, Volks, Volks
Redesigning Penals should mean to carve out a role for them and make them viable. They should not substitute Conscripts (and neither Maxims should be able to substitute Conscripts AND Penals, as they currently do).
Yes, the vast majority of artillery in this game scale well beyond what they should in bigger game modes.
However, the bigger culprit here is map design which doesn't take into account the effects of:
- Territory lockdown from emplacements (Brit emplacements, OKW FlakHQ)
- Forward retreat points
That's not necessarily the map designers' fault, as many of these maps predate WFA. It's more of a question of why such maps are still in the map pool to begin with.
Thus, maps that would already be considered to be bottleneck heavy are completely annihilated by these two mechanics, and aggressive play becomes unattractive. In the end, the army with the better artillery will win.
Mortars and Stuff
One idea would be to at least nerf auto-attack stats. The idea is to force a user that makes heavy use of mortars to actually have to invest some micro into them as well (just like the opposition has to invest in some heavy dancing to negate their effect).
- Mortar Pit Auto-fire range reduced from 115 to 80
- Mortar Pit cost reduced from 400mp to 350mp
- The 2nd mortar weapon used for the barrage now has the same kill radius as the other mortars (bugfix)
The auto-fire change means that you must actually use micro to use the Mortar Pit to its fullest and the cost reduction helps offset the new micro requirement.
<snip>
(the quoted post was in an emplacements-themed thread, thus there was no mention at all of other artillery pieces. I'm sure we can come up with similar ideas about mobile artillery though).
This is a big issue. However, I don't think you need something stronger than 1 (maybe 2) Katyushas to really break a pak wall. If other artillery needs to remain stronger than the Katyusha (for whatever reason) their cost, and particularly their popcap cost needs to be nerfed to reflect that (e.g., 18-20 popcap).
To give you an example of what true Artifest Hell looks like:
The Walking stuka only takes up 4 Popcap in CoH1. Factor in some long stalemate matches, and try to picture what the current meta revolves around.
For every single thing that CoH2 seems to be doing wrong (e.g., sniper meta, call-in meta, pak-walling, artillery), CoH2 is literally lightyears ahead from its predecessor in terms of game design. Kudos to the designers/balance team for that.