Fixing The Issues With Vet 3 Infantry Sections

+1 great thread OP and well researched

Maybe its worth adding to the bug section, might get more attention from relic

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Pro tips.

You don't see a problem with a bug making picked up weapons drop much more frequently than they should?

a squad only have so much room. The g43 and ppsh upgrade are specifically choices made by the players.

Stuff like the scoped enfield are basically forced upon the players.

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Pfffff, at this point, it's that when a modder hasn't thought of a fix means Relic's got an excuse in the meantime.

I wouldn't call this a bug, this is intended functionality.

You got more weapons? You drop more weapons.

I wouldn't call this a bug, this is intended functionality.

You got more weapons? You drop more weapons.

Tommies dropping their weapons is not such a big issue.

The main issue is that Tommies can't use their weapon upgrades:

If the item doesn't drop, it is stored until the squad is reinforced to have enough members to equip it.

This makes Tommy performance completely RNG-dependent the moment that they drop down to 3 men (or less); and there's nothing you can do to prevent it.

When that "feature" becomes addressed, Tommies might or might not have to get nerfed to compensate. Personally, I don't care. However, I do know that I cannot rely on a squad that is so inconsistent.

Tommies dropping their weapons is not such a big issue.

The main issue is that Tommies can't use their weapon upgrades:

Again, plenty of other squads work like this too. Tommies are just unique in that they are the only squad that can get four slotted weapons consistently. (Except for maybe jaeger lights that pick up two weapons?)

Again, plenty of other squads work like this too. Tommies are just unique in that they are the only squad that can get four slotted weapons consistently. (Except for maybe jaeger lights that pick up two weapons?)

Or double bar pathfinders?
Or guards?

Again, plenty of other squads work like this too. Tommies are just unique in that they are the only squad that can get four slotted weapons consistently. (Except for maybe jaeger lights that pick up two weapons?)

Not quite.

Each of these weapon upgrades confers a significant bonus to the affected squads. Depending on the weapon, the squad gets:
- Better accuracy on the move (G43's)
- Superior short-range DPS (PPSH)
- Snipe-crit chance (Pathfinders, JLI)
- Anti-vehicle capabilities (PTRS, Boys AT)
- (apart from G43's on Stormtroopers/PGrens of course; if you tech them it's your own fault)

What is the exact bonus that SLEs are supposed to confer to the squad to justify their existence? A 10%-15% DPS increase in two models, with the same -75% accuracy-on-the-move penalty?

Moreover, the squads you are thinking of are either:
- Specialist units
- Main-line infantry with opt-in upgrades

In other words, it's supposed to be "your own damn fault" with those squads/upgrades. Instead, Tommies are supposed to act as the main line infantry of UKF. Bear in mind that Tommies:
- Have no AT snare
- Can tech for a grenade that is completely unsuitable for their long-range profile
- Their out-of-cover reload penalty prevents them from using AT weapons efficiently (even if we didn't have the Vet3 "feature" that is)
- Have absolutely terrible accuracy on-the-move
- Are the only source of healing for UKF (thus, having 2 Tommies is mandatory)

Without weapon upgrades, I struggle to see what is supposed to be Tommies' claim to relevance in the end-game.
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PS: Double-Bren Tommies would probably be OP with their Vet3 "feature". However, I am sure that there are other ways to hamper their performance in other ways which are not so blatantly RNG-dependent.

PS: Double-Bren Tommies would probably be OP with their Vet3 "feature". However, I am sure that there are other ways to hamper their performance in other ways which are not so blatantly RNG-dependent.

well, you can limit the bren to max of one per squad. It's entirely possible to do this without messing up the other upgrade.

might as well do something similar for the m1919a6 as well. I hate double lmg in general.

well, you can limit the bren to max of one per squad. It's entirely possible to do this without messing up the other upgrade.

might as well do something similar for the m1919a6 as well. I hate double lmg in general.

Which is exactly how we got to this topic.

Again:

The Grenadier LMG42 increases squad DPS by ~75% and the (in-cover) Tommy Bren increases squad DPS by ~43%.

Infantry Sections (IS) pay exactly the same amount for a single Bren as Grenadiers (Grens) do for an LMG42. Despite this, the upgraded IS only have superior max-range (i.e. optimal range for IS versus Grens) DPS when in cover so paying the same amount as an Ostheer opponent actually reduces your advantage at optimal range.

The M1919A6, for example, increases a Rifleman squad's max-range DPS by ~90%. It still ends up with less absolute max-range DPS (15.85) than Grens (15.99) or in-cover IS (16.59) and costs ten more munitions but certainly (over?)performs for its cost compared to other LMG upgrades.

You would be right to say that Brens could be rebalanced once they'd been limited to one per squad but that logic also applies to rebalancing Brens while you can give a squad two. I can see the "dual-LMG bad!" argument having merit when applied to the do-everything Riflemen (especially given their weapon profile) but not when applied to Infantry Sections.

It's entirely possible to do this without messing up the other upgrade.

I wouldn't exactly characterise my solution as "messing up" the SLEs given that it would only increase 5-man vet 3 IS DPS by roughly 6/7.2% if they don't have weapon upgrades.

You would be right to say that Brens could be rebalanced once they'd been limited to one per squad but that logic also applies to rebalancing Brens while you can give a squad two. I can see the "dual-LMG bad!" argument having merit when applied to the do-everything Riflemen (especially given their weapon profile) but not when applied to Infantry Sections.

having ~4 highly durable tommies infantry running around with ober level of firepower is a horrible idea. the blob would be unstoppable.

and the tommies have plenty of useless abilities needing improvement, like the artillery and gammon bomb. It would be better to improve those abilities rather trying to enable double lmg blob.

having ~4 highly durable tommies infantry running around with ober level of firepower is a horrible idea. the blob would be unstoppable.

"having ~4 highly durable obers infantry etc."

I do not approve of infantry section scaling onto [vet 0] ober level. I barely approve ober's insanely high dps either, but in practice they are tolerable.

Four fully-upgraded Infantry Sections (IS) cost significantly more than four upgraded Obersoldaten and vet 0 Obersoldaten are essentially better Infantry Sections.

Obersoldaten don't exactly one-shot squads either and the Luchs, Ostwind, Flaktrack, 222 Scout Car, and Flame Half-Track aren't going to be kind to someone spending 1320/480/50 on cover-reliant anti-infantry infantry.

and the tommies have plenty of useless abilities needing improvement, like the artillery and gammon bomb. It would be better to improve those abilities rather trying to enable double lmg blob.

I'd like to see Gammon Bombs (and Mills Bombs) moved to Royal Engineers, actually. Their range doesn't work all that well with the long-range Infantry Sections.

Infantry Sections with the Pyrotechnic Supplies and Snipers could double as mobile indirect fire with an increased throw range on the flare and slightly less scatter on the artillery.

I'm starting to think "dual-LMG" is a buzzword like "Volkshrecks" or "Brit Cancer" that I'm not understanding. Halving the cost of the Bren and reducing its DPS to half its current DPS is easily possible and dual Brens wouldn't be OP, although I don't recommend it as a change.

the forumla I used is from relic's mod studio. coh2.hu obviously use a different formula.

Pardon me, but where would I find that in the modding tools? I've been meaning to model some changes to infantry weapons but I wasn't sure of the formula.

Also, are we arguing entirely over whether or not the IS vet 3 should be fixed?

Pardon me, but where would I find that in the modding tools? I've been meaning to model some changes to infantry weapons but I wasn't sure of the formula.

Also, are we arguing entirely over whether or not the IS vet 3 should be fixed?

Let's agree that the scoped enfield should be removed/fixed, and then discuss the issue with double bren separately. I've got it implemented in a mod if you're interested, but the changes is mixed in with a lot of other stuff.

as for the dps forumla:

open the attribute editor

file -> export -> weapon report

it will generate a .csv containing the formula.

Let's agree that the scoped enfield should be removed/fixed, and then discuss the issue with double bren separately. I've got it implemented in a mod if you're interested, but the changes is mixed in with a lot of other stuff.

as for the dps forumla:

open the attribute editor

file -> export -> weapon report

it will generate a .csv containing the formula.

Fair enough. Thank you for the help with the formula!