I've never once seen a CP reach vet5 outside of comp stomp
I have also already covered this question previously in this thread.
Let's take the following statements as axioms (the statements might not be true, but let's say they are):
- The CP is completely fine at Vet0
- The CP becomes completely broken at Vet5
This implies that there is a particular Veterancy transition that turns the CP from "A bit strong" to "gamebreaking".
I claim that this transition happens somewhere between Vet2 and Vet3. Therefore, we should probably cap CP veterancy at that point.
Now, since I can already predict that your next question is "Wtf are you talking about, I've never even seen a Vet2/Vet3 Command Panther; or a Vet2/Vet3 is still killable.", this question has also been already asked in the thread previously by Zarok47.
Welcome to the thread.
FAQs Q: It takes ages for the CP to reach VetX, who cares? A: Why not cap the Veterancy of the Command Panther at VetX so that it doesn't break the game in case it does? In certain gamemode it is very common for the CP to reach Vet2/Vet3
Q: 4v4? Who cares? A: I'm proposing a small change that will probably not really affect the smaller game modes as much (since achieving Vet2/3 is so difficult to begin with as you claim). This change will have a very big impact on a very popular gamemode that is played by the majority of the players. Is there a fundamental reason to reject the change?
Q: Ok, I see. But every other OKW unit has 5 levels of veterancy. A: Then spread the available aura/unit stats on those 5 levels of veterancy
Q: But the CP would take ages to reach that level of veterancy? A: Then give the CP all the stats it is allowed to have at Vet0, and then not let it vet anymore.
A (theoretical) CP that reaches Vet-5 makes allied infantry outrange enemy infantry. This cannot possibly be "completely fine".
Now, before somebody comments "Oh, is it just about the Vet-5 bonus?", I ask you kindly to read the argumentation on the 1-2 pages of the thread. If you can come up with counterarguments, I would welcome a discussion.
It's a nice bit of kit and the +20 sight range is a bit strong, particularly as it applies to itself! Haven't tested it but I don't think the UKF's command vehicle buffs apply to itself, and the nerfs are extreme.
The only Aura unit that applies buffs to itself is the P4 command tank. (not counting pay-per-activation abilities like "Heroic Charge" etc)
The P5 just simply gets bonus sight range as a base stat (i.e., the P5 does not reap the benefits of its vetting aura.
You know the russian mark target is more expensive and worst than the CP mark target right? panther is 50% damage and mark target is 30%.
I really don't want to turn this into a thread of Soviet abilities/units that have overperforming counterparts in other armies/compositions
The list would be too long, and people would nitpick on minute differences (e.g., "But Mark target lasts 60 seconds, while Coordinated Fire only lasts 20 seconds!!"). The thread would get derailed, and we'd get back to square one; where we still have an über aura in the game.
PS: If somebody does point out such minute off-topic differences, please don't be baited to reply
I don't have a sound strategy vs MG42 & Sniper & 222. However, I know the following:
1. You need to recognise the following strategic opportunity:
- A Vet1 Brit sniper is a hardcounter to 222's since he can snare them reliably
- By default, a Brit sniper will have a very dangerous time getting to Vet1 in time (countersniping, 222's can yolodive in base)
- However, killing the enemy sniper with your own sniper will get him Vet1 (or very close to it)
- Having cleared the enemy sniper, you can continue sniping against garrisons (Brit sniper never misses vs garrisoned squads)
- When the 222 comes out, you have the answer out (vs a crippled 222, you only need to supplement with PIATs or AT gun)
2. The performance of 222 is currently bugged vs infantry.
The 222 has 2 weapons, the autocannon (that goes *BOOM* *BOOM* *BOOM*), and the coaxial MG (that goes *RATATATATATA*).
The autocannon is crap vs infantry, and deals almost no damage vs infantry when they are garrisoned. Inversely, the MG absolutely shreds infantry, even they are garrisoned.
However, according to Miragefla, the MG has a horrible time tracking infantry (I think it has trouble aiming upwards).
Thus, if you put your infantry in a Trench, they will evaporate instantly. If you put your infantry on a 2-story building and the 222 starts aiming towards the upper story, they will survive for a few minutes.
In fact, given the right building, your sniper has a chance to outdamage the 222 before he dies (provided that both the 222 and the sniper are completely unsupported).
- Never retreat your sniper vs the 222, unless you have a backup plan (AT/PIATs or Mines covering the retreat path)
- Place your infantry in buildings (NOT TRENCHES) and see if the MG of the 222 can engage vs them. If the MG doesn't fire, you're safe. If the MG starts firing, then it's time to start dancing.
Not in a single game did the command panther reach vet 3, so these finals are by no means proof vet 3 panthers are a "death-switch" which in itself is already enough to render your point moot in the first quoted post.
Vet3 is the definitive point where a death-switch occurs (for any type of army composition that contains vehicles).
However, when you are fielding a Luchs-heavy army, a Vet2 Command Panther already massively improves the performance of your Luchs.
This is because:
- Luchs has an accuracy-mostly-based attack vs infantry (thus 20% higher-accuracy = 20% more DPS) -- this is unlike other tank cannons (where it's a scatter based attack)
- Reload speed on Luchs does nothing (Luchs fires its shots in bursts, just like the Ostwind)
Now, if you re-watch the replay carefully, again:
- Mark the time when the Command Panther reaches Vet2
- Observe the map control / resource situation
- Notice the double Luchs placement (since they benefit from free accuracy, there is no need to close in on the conscripts to harass)
- Both Luchs are still in range of the Command Panther aura, and they still manage to shred Conscripts at long range, even though there are obstacles between the Luchs and the conscripts.
- On a scatter-based attack (i.e, if the attack "misses", most of the shots would land on the vaultable wall obstacle between the Luchs and the conscript squads)
Secondly, the only time the commmand panther did reach vet 2, it died at the end of the game. Okw still won by vps but if there were more vps, it would be over for okw.
Furthermore, that game shows how it's still possible to kill a vet 2 panther, so there is that.
Sure. What of the cost-vs-benefit analysis?
- How many Tanks did Luvnest have to throw at the Command Tank just to take it down?
- How many of these tanks survived?
- How many attempts before the successful one did Luvnest make before he could take down the Command Panther?
- Wouldn't you say that Nogano had dropped his guard towards the end of the game, when he got outflanked? Could it be the end-game fatigue/feeling he was going to win anyway due to VPs?
Finally, in both games were the command panther got any veterancy (second game saw no command panther actually, it was over before that) were 30+ minutes game, and the only reason the command panther did have any impact was because it was used as a call-in unit, skipping t4 as to build a large army (luchs and stuka were build in both games).
Seeing as the call-in nature is not the point of contention here (nor the mark target ability) the replays show not how the command panther aura veterancy gain is in any way shape or form problematic.
In my OP, I explicitly mentioned that a Vet0 Command Panther is already good enough. Game 1 & Game 2 prove my point.
What I am explicitly targeting is Command Panther veterancy. I have a feeling that Game 3 replay also proves my point, but you seem to believe otherwise. I would love to be able to summon Luvnest in this thread so that he could contribute his analysis of the game.
PS: The reason I even bothered mentioning that no STG Obers were fielded was because:
It's a small difference indeed, made further worse that the call-in nature (bypassing tech) is not appliciable in the command panther situation because of the ober soldaten upgrade.
The commander it comes in is a bit of a mis-match, seeing as it has an upgrade for obers which need to be build in t4, but also a call-in which rather replaces a same unit out of t4. The point here being that taking full effect of this commander requires t4 which deminished the effect of going for the call-in command panther.
Command Panther Aura does not increase the bonus is the same from VET0 to VET5. Simply at vet 5 infantry get the same bonus as vehicles .
Further more the Command panther reaches vet 1 at 3120 (14% more)Xp while a Panther at 2730.
Finally imo the Aura system should be benefit from experience. Aura units should start with lower bonuses that should progressive become better. Else this unis will difficult to balance since they will either be too strong early normal in late game or to good early useless late.
In the current system unit preservation for aura units that can be replaced serves little purpose and they can be used like normal units
Sure. If we want to proliferate aura units in the game, we could make it so that aura benefits from Veterancy. This means that the aura effect:
- At Vet0, the effect of the aura could made lower than what it is now.
- At Vet3, the effect of the aura should probably not exceed the bonuses at Vet0/Vet2.
If you disagree, where would you draw the line for Vet3, according to the Command Aura benefits?
This is the best I could find. I saw the live casted by A_E, thus you might be able to locate the relevant game on his Twitch stream.
In all 3 games, both players picked OKW vs Soviets. In all 3 games both players picked the Spec Ops doctrine. Neither of the players even bothered to field STG Obers.
- In all games, the Vet0 Command Panther already proved to be more than efficient for its cost (because of the Coordinated Fire ability)
- In the last game, you can see how a Vet2 Command Panther manages to turn a losing game.
Perhaps because no can say its a death switch since no one ever saw a vet 5 command panther?
A Vet3 Command Panther is a death-switch enough. If you compare:
- The Vet3 Aura bonuses of the Command Panther
- To the Veterancy bonuses of ANY unit in ANY faction at ANY tier
you will also notice that a Vet3 Panther:
- Immediately awards 1-2 stars of GOOD veterancy (as in not crappy EFA Vet1) to each affected unit
- Nothing prevents a vetted unit to stack its own veterancy on top of the aura-awarded veterancy
.. and that's only because you managed to keep ONE unit alive the whole game. Your army doesn't have to be Panther/P4 spam. It could be a Luchs/Puma-hybrid spam backed by a Command Tank:
- Each Vet0 Puma replacement immediately turns into a Vet2 Puma
- Each Vet2 Luchs will turn into a sniper with auto-fire
Did I also mention that the range of the aura is massive?
The bolded part is not as simple as that.
Plenty of times i've seen a command panther die before even reaching vet 2, let alone vet 3.
Claiming that a vet 3 command panther is an autowin is simply impossible without extensive back-up. Said back-up can certainly not exist out of a single game (assuming that game was won solely due to the command panther).
Try to watch the EU cup #12 final somewhere. Particularly the last game (although the Command Panther was fielded in all 3 games).
Infact, it might even be true the command p4 attains vet faster since it can actually fight inf (and inf being the most used units in coh2)
The command P4 aura is insanely strong, mainly for infantry. The reason I am complaining about the P5 here and not the P4 is that the command aura of the P5:
- Improves with Veterancy
- Becomes gamebreaking already at Vet3
The Command P4 also SACRIFICES something with respect to the vanilla P4:
- You need to use other units to cover up with AT to keep the P4 alive from armour rushes
Instead with the P5:
- If somebody tries to bumrush my P5 with armour, they will just feed me vet, and I'll steamroll them
- They try to bumrush me with infantry/AT guns, I'll just relocate. The P5 is maneuverable enough
- The P5 is also 80% more durable than the P4 (even with the auras taken into account)
- I also get a cool sight-range for free with my P5 to plan my assaults
It is important to differentiate this. In my OP I asked two questions:
1. Why does the AURA of the Command Tank have to improve with Veterancy?
2. Why do the UNIT STATS (survivability) of a unit that provides a strong aura have to improve with Veterancy.
The most important question to ask ourselves is #1; this is what makes this unit fundamentally broken (i.e., a deathswitch). I don't think any of the responses has even touched this question.
Command panther is arguably OP but when did you ever seen a vet 5 command panther?
The aura that the Command Panther gets at Vet3 is already the strongest such aura in the game
- With the exception of UKF command vehicle, which is cumbersome to use due to the reduced speed
The reason why you never see a vet-5 Command Panther is because OKW will have won the game by the time the CP reaches Vet-3. It's as simple as that.
With the Mark Target ability (50% extra damage = 50% extra vet), it's not difficult to grind Veterancy either.
Find me a decent high-tier replay (post OKW-rework) where a Vet-3 CP did not manage to turn a match to the favour of an OKW (for an example that demonstrates the opposite, you can watch the Cup #12 EU finals).
To 1. Simply put, i see it as on of the main points of coh2: being rewarded for veterancy. The only unit that bypasses this is the sturm officer from the JT commander, a unit most people do not use (perhaps for this reason, or perhaps for other reasons). Personally, i never liked the unit for having no vet.
The Sturmofficer is an amazing utility unit (now that OKW has the munitions to spend it). The main reason you never see this unit in high-level play is the force-retreat debuff (lose that model and all nearby infantry retreats). Other reasons are:
- In order to get the best of this unit you need to blob, and blobbing loses games.
- In 1vs1, other commanders are better adapted to the more infantry-heavy combat
Aura units could, perhaps, unlock utility-based veterancy (throw smoke there etc). As I mentioned in the OP, the longer the game lasts, the more units will have benefited from staying in the aura.
To 2. The command p4 survivablity also increases with veterancy (blitz and sideskirts) therefor i think that it's the general theme of such units. You get rewarded with more survivability for keeping these units alive.
The thing is that the Command Panther is already way more survivable than the P4, even at Vet0:
- More Armour
- Better speed
- Better gun, so that it can 1vs1 most flanking units
Any survivability veterancy on top of that is multiplicative.
How do you finish off a Command Panther with USF/Soviets? Any engagement that you lose while failing to wipe the Command Panther off means extra Veterancy for the CP.
With the Vet-Aura, this means extra stats for the entire OKW army.
However, this is about question #2. Question #1 is way more important.
To 3. I think i alreadt touched upon this in my opening, but i shall write it down once more: Taking full effect of this commander, deminished the return on investment for the call-in. Besides that, as noted, you pay more for the command panther, and it comes in a doctrine.
The Command Panther NEEDS to cost more than Vanilla Panthers because:
- It retains the full combat capabilities of a Panther
- It has much better sight range than the Panther (55 vs 35)
- It has an aura that allows all your other tanks to spot for themselves.
(I'm not touching Mark Target here. Mark Target may as well have been a separate ability in the commander)
Besides, the doctrine is very very viable for all gamemodes (and not just for the Command Panther).
TL;DR: The Command Panther should probably not gain any veterancy at all; adjust price & performance accordingly:
1. Why does the potency of the aura need to increase with veterancy? The potency of an aura de-facto increases over time already, as your army grows, anyway.
2. Why does the survivability of an already resilient aura unit also need to increase over time?
3. If an aura unit performs exactly the same as a combat unit and costs almost the same, where is the cost-benefit decision I need to make when I field my first Panther?
4. Aura stacking (i.e., auras affecting allied units) should not exist, but that's a separate issue.
FAQ
Q: I've never had/seen a Vet4/Vet5 Command Panther before in my life. What the hell is this post all about? A:
- First of all, the bonuses become already too strong at Vet3.
- Secondly, it is rare, but it does happen.
- Finally, the frequency of how often something broken occurs is irrelevant. Wouldn't it be better design to cap the Veterancy of the CP at a reasonable level? (somewhere between Vet2 and Vet3). That way the CP would not break the few interesting games that it does.
For an actual high-tier match where the Vet-5 CP shows up, have a look at the following video (minute 30-ish on):
Q: But it takes aaaaages to vet the CP compared to a normal panther. A: This is simply not true. The Veterancy requirements of the CP are only 15% more than a normal Panther. Moreover, the CP has the "Coordinated Fire" ability which (i) makes the target take 50% extra damage and (ii) costs only 35 munitions to activate. 50% extra damage is 50% extra veterancy. Your CP will catch up to your normal Panthers nicely.
Q: 4v4? Who cares?
A: I'm proposing a small change that will probably not really affect the smaller game modes as much (since achieving Vet2/3 is so difficult to begin with as you claim). This change will have a very big impact on a very popular gamemode that is played by the majority of the players. Is there a fundamental reason to reject the change?
Q: What are the veterancy bonuses of the Command Panther (CP)?
Q: What are the differences between a Command Panther and a normal Panther? A: It depends on what your definition of a "normal Panther" is:
OST Panther
- Let's use this as the baseline (base stats + veterancy)
- Blitzkrieg: +15% speed, -25% received accuracy
OKW Vanilla Panther
- Improved MG DPS (I'm not a connoisseur. Probably around +30-50% MG DPS)
- Improved moving accuracy (+30% compared to OST Panther)
- Combat Blitz: +40% speed, -50% received accuracy, +100% accuracy
- Vet4 & Vet5
Command Panther
- Improved sight range (35 -> 55)
- Improved MG DPS (same as vanilla OKW Panther)
- Combat Blitz (same as OKW Panther)
- Offensive vet starts lagging behind at Vet2 & Vet3
- The Command Panthera also received the "Coordinated Fire" ability
Coordinated Fire (35 Munitions, 20 seconds duration)
- +50% damage on enemy target
- 1 minute cooldown
Compared to the OKW Panther, the CP loses the moving accuracy bonus, the Vet4/Vet5 bonuses and some offensive stats at Vet2 and Vet3.
Q: What are you on about? Command Panther bonuses look completely fine; Veterancy is fine. A: Observe the bonuses at Vet4 and Vet5. At Vet4, vehicles will receive a +5 bonus to their range. At Vet5, even infantry will receive that bonus. This leads to the following amusing situations:
- Your infantry will start outranging enemy infantry
- All your units will be able to outsight any enemy unit, including dedicated scout units, e.g., Pathfinders (55 range vs 45 range)
- Volksgrenadiers will be able to outsight (55 vs 35) enemy tanks and fire Schrecks from the FoW (40 range with the buff). Tanks will no longer be able to kite Volksgrenadiers (40 vs 40).
- SU/USF/UKF dedicated TDs will lose the only benefit they have over Panthers, their range: (55 vs 60). Panthers will be able to outsight heavy TDs (55 vs 35) and kiting them will become impossible.
Now, let's assume the following (even though they might not be true):
- The Command Panther is completely fine at Vet0
- The Command Panther is completely broken at Vet5
This means that somewhere between Vet0 and Vet5 there is a veterancy transition that turns the CP from "a bit OP" to "rather broken". Again, why not cap CP veterancy at that point?
In my opinion:
The Command Panther does not have to reach Vet5 to be considered broken. It is already too strong at Vet3.
Q: Isn't Veterancy one of the defining mechanics in this game that rewards unit preservation? Why would you want to take this away? If somebody keeps their CP alive until Vet5, they should get some benefits. No? A: We could redesign the Command Panther to still benefit from Veterancy. However, the power level of the CP should never reach or exceed the power level it achieves at Vet3. Therefore, we have the following options:
- Cap CP Veterancy at Vet2/Vet3
- Spread the Vet0-Vet2 bonuses between Vet0-Vet5
- Nerf the Aura/unit of the CP at Vet0 and make it regain those bonuses (up until the current Vet2) as it gains Veterancy
Now, which one would you choose?
Q: But isn't this a nerf to OKW? A: This is a nerf to extreme-lategame of OKW, where other factions already have issues keeping up with it. This will not affect the early game of OKW, nor the mid-game nor the late-game in most modes.
Main Post
The OKW Command Panther ability is a bundle of three abilities:
- A conditional Mark Target ability (requires the Command Panther to be alive to activate)
- An combat panther that can self-spot (comes early and also requires no teching)
- A very powerful aura, that also scales with Veterancy
(All of this for 560 Manpower, 225 Fuel & 35 Munitions per ability pop)
Yes, the Mark Target ability is cheaper/way better than the Soviet equivalent, but that's fine. This cost-performance mismatch is not what makes the Command Panther truly broken.
It's the fact that if the Command Panther ever reaches Vet2 then it's gg, regardles of the gamemode. This is because:
- The command panther receives a significant boost to its survivability at Vet2
- The effects of the aura already start to become extremely powerful at Vet2
- This will inevitable snowball into the Command Panther achieving Vet3/Vet4/Vet5, where each of the aura effects is extremely OP in-and-of themselves (and they stack!)
The million-dollar question I have for everyone is: "Why do the effects of the aura of the Command Panther have to increase with veterancy?"
- The effects of the aura already scale over time (more units fielded = more units that benefit from the aura)
- OKW extreme late-game would already be very powerful, even with a Vet0 Command Panther
- Is there a point in having such a deathswitch ("if you survive until minute 40:00 you win") so hardcoded into the game? Does it add any sort of strategic dimension?
Romeo
Mr Smith
Luciano
Mr Smith
Relic Entertainment
