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Thread: OKW Command Panther veterancy is a bit broken26 Mar 2016, 17:15 PM Jump back to quoted post26 Mar 2016, 14:43 PMPablonano Lets make the game just punishing and take of everyking of reward feeling and cooperative things, it will be awesome and totally worth to play... And yes, its sarcasm I completely agree with you that veterancy should be rewarding. However, a unit that completely breaks the game just because it reaches a particular level of veterancy is not. The Vet4/Vet5 Command Panther is currently the most game-breaking unit in the game; by far. There is no amount of Veterancy or army composition that the enemy team can put up to make up for the Vet4 +5 range bonus, or the Vet5 "let's-yolo-apply-all-buffs-to-infantry-too" bonus. A 50-range KT is not fun to play against. Vet0 Volksgrenadiers that outrange all other infantry in the game is also broken. That's just some of the "fun" effects of the CP. Other units also get ridiculous veterancy bonuses (not the topic of this thread). However, Relic should be careful when applying these bonuses to aura units; these can easily just scale out of hand. Jump back to quoted post26 Mar 2016, 14:59 PMvasa1719 Its so strange logic, i dont see vet 5 com panther so its fine. I dont see vet 3 penals , so its fine ? I dont see vet 5 obers, mean that there vet are fine and unit ? That's precisely my point, thank you! For instance, take the AEC tread shot. Did you know that when it hits it immobilizes the vehicle for 20 seconds (50 range 50-ish munitions)? However, mostly due to bugs and the conditions needed to trigger this effect, you don't see that immobilization very often do you? This doesn't stop the effect from being broken. However, not even the tread shot effect comes anywhere near as close as the Command Panther. Jump back to quoted post26 Mar 2016, 10:51 AMKrötentöten I cindly ask those people who say it needs nerfing so bad to simply play a few games with the CP and actualy reach those vet levels... I have attached a video of a CP reaching vet 4.5 and I still loose. Granted my mate was not up to the challenge but thats then exactly how it should be eh? This vastly depends on the gamemode. However, it is not too difficult to get a CP to Vet3 in bigger teammodes. I would say that in 1 out of 10 games I use the CP I do manage to reach that Vet level; the effect of the aura already feels overpowering at Vet3. Jump back to quoted post26 Mar 2016, 10:51 AMKrötentöten The truth is you cant skip the last tech with any commander atm as you simply need obers and/or tanks. You might do it with pfüssiliers and jagdtiger but thats about it and I dont advise it either. And once you have t1/t2 and t3 up it is a mere 120 +65 or 55 fuel more for a KT. The way I, personally, do it is create 4-5 Volks, get Raketenwerfers for AT. Then I envelop the target from all directions possible and I use my saved munitions to spam infiltration nades. Perhaps my unit preservation skills suck, but I've found it very difficult to keep Obersoldaten squads alive with all the amount of RNG wipes going currently in the game. So, why pay more for less? Jump back to quoted post26 Mar 2016, 10:51 AMKrötentöten I have analised the CP in more detail in my last post. But again, yes it is a good unit, no it needs atleast 2 other tanks to be stronger than just a regular panther, not counting mark vehicle which is very strong but costs munitions. Raketenwerfers also synergise with the CP Coordinated Fire brilliantly. Try to bait your enemy to your CP, pop coordinated fire and let those little guns fire. Don't neglect the added sight range. Jump back to quoted post26 Mar 2016, 10:51 AMKrötentöten Thanks to mark target the CP is always worth it over a normal panther which is fine as it costs more and is the defining unit of the commander. Why wouldnt it be good? The elefant, isu, jagdtiger/tiger are also all way more effective/price than stock units. If this werent the case then why have doctrines? Those are all very strong units. However even for those super-heavies, there is always some tradeoffs to be made between stock units and doctrinal units. Sure, the elefant has longer range than the Stug, but it's also significantly slower, and it's nowhere near as cost-efficient. The Tiger has good AI, but AT-wise it's nowhere near as manoeuvrable as the Panther, and nowhere as cheap or fast as the (weaker) P4. I just don't see a similar trade-off between the OKW Panther and the CP. Yes, the CP needs to be strong (to justify the doctrine choice & higher price), but it could be stronger in more subtle ways. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Improved Emplacements Commander26 Mar 2016, 09:58 AM Jump back to quoted post26 Mar 2016, 05:46 AMSvanh Emplacements in General: Mortar Pit: - Mortar Pit Auto-fire range reduced from 115 to 80 - Mortar Pit cost reduced from 400mp to 350mp - The 2nd mortar weapon used for the barrage now has the same kill radius as the other mortars (bugfix) The auto-fire change means that you must actually use micro to use the Mortar Pit to its fullest and the cost reduction helps offset the new micro requirement. This is an exceptionally-good suggestion for the Mortar Pit. Sure, it needs some way to outrange the opposition, but the (fixed) barrage can still take care of it (maybe reduce the cooldown a bit, since it is very long at Vet0). However, with the auto-fire change it will not willy-nilly wipe units halfway across the map. Jump back to quoted post26 Mar 2016, 05:46 AMSvanh Bofors: - Health reduced from 1000 to 720 The Bofors is currently slightly too cost efficient at 280/30. The Bofors is indeed very cost efficient at 280/30. If we go for the performance-nerfing route, the Popcap might also have to be decreased slightly (from 10 to 8-ish?) Otherwise, we could remove the teching cost altogether and integrate it to the cost of building the actual unit (which will make replacing or spamming Bofors more costly). Jump back to quoted post26 Mar 2016, 05:46 AMSvanh 17 Pounder: - Pop cost reduced from 20 to 15 I think this change speaks for itself. Apart from the popcap issue, the 17 Pounder also suffers from being the only AT gun in the game that can be sniped by tanks and AT guns. I don't know if that can be solved somehow. However, they also have the option of making the 17 Pounder a copy-pasta of the Pak 43 (decrewable etc) and call it a day. Jump back to quoted post26 Mar 2016, 05:46 AMSvanh Advanced Emplacement Regiment: Improved Fortifications: - 30% health bonus removed - Cost reduced from 75 munitions to 45 munitions The armour bonus is significant enough on its own, requiring you to use grenades or artillery against emplacements if you don't have tanks. At the same time, 75 munitions is slightly too much for just the armour boost. That health boost is pretty annoying. However, at the same time I don't think that the armour boost makes any difference at all (i.e., it will totally not be worth it). The only building where resilience to small arms fire even matters is the Forward Assembly (since it can't brace). Jump back to quoted post26 Mar 2016, 05:46 AMSvanh Counter Battery: - Counter-Battery initial delay increased from 0-5 seconds to 10 seconds - Counter-Battery cooldown between salvos increased from 4 seconds to 10 seconds - Counter-Battery range increased from 250 to 1000 These changes will equalise Counter Battery performance across all map sizes while ensuring artillery has sufficient time to move before and between salvos. The cooldown nerf is a good idea (btw, what is the cooldown on similar counterbarrage abilities from the OST?) My main gripe vs this ability is that it doesn't tax the player who uses it at all. If I were allowed to make a change to the commander I would replace Counter-Battery with Royal Arty concentration barrage. I would also rebalance Royal Arty concentration barrage as follows: - Remove the warning flare - Fires no airburst shells (since we remove the flares, we don't want pinpoint arty. Also allows the player to tech something other than Anvil) - Fires more HE shells than the normal ability (something like 6 shells per howlitzer instead of 3 shells) - Do something about scatter, so that the ability can be used to counter barrage That way, by fixing Advanced Emplacements, we are also partially fixing a neglected non-DLC commander at the same time. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Royal Artillery + Sexton Balance26 Mar 2016, 09:24 AM Jump back to quoted post25 Mar 2016, 22:55 PMMyself I thing you are underestimating range a bit: 1) supercharge range is 400 but at vet 3 it benefits from the bonus and becomes 400*1,33=532 thus can cover most map from a very safe distance. 2) Scatter distance is capped at distance_scatter_max so after a certain range it is no longer affected...(15.5 in this case) distance_scatter_max will only cap vertical scatter. Horizontal scatter is an angle and has no cap. According to the stats: - The vertical scatter for both Priest and Sexton are capped at distance 124 (or 99 if firing into the FoW) - Both units have a 5 degree angle horizontal scatter Cruzz took the following picture of the scatter of a Sexton barrage at max range (135): Thus, if you try to aim a sexton barrage at range 532, your barrage area will look 4.2 times wider. However, even at 135 range, I still find that unit unusable. (PS: I haven't checked exactly which scatter stats are affected by the Vet2 bonus) Jump back to quoted post25 Mar 2016, 22:55 PMMyself 3) If one is firing at an enemy concentration his shots do not have to land in the center to be effective... - The Valentine concentration barrage spawns a warning flare, which mimics off-map abilities. - If you are firing at a concentration, you will have one shot landing every 8 seconds. This is enough time to clear the area (even if the enemy somehow missed the warning flare) - If you are fielding more than one sexton (and a Valentine) to better use the ability, you probably don't have the popcap for anything else Jump back to quoted post25 Mar 2016, 22:55 PMMyself If one can easily afford multiple valentines on the field he will be able to cover most of the map easily and will be very difficult to for the opponents to move undetected... The tradeoff here is that the Valentine costs a crapload of resources (for its combat performance), has low HP and its gun is comparable to the Bazooka. I have never fielded or fought against a Valentine horde before. However, I strongly suspect that a single medium tank would be enough to hardcounter the Valentine horde. Given its utility, the Valentine should not be buffed to the point that it becomes a very cost-efficient combat unit. However, its current state is pathetic (sure, the Valentine could lose its ability to crush infantry if it ever gets buffed). In: COH2 Balance
Thread: OKW Command Panther veterancy is a bit broken26 Mar 2016, 09:01 AM Jump back to quoted post26 Mar 2016, 03:38 AMCulainn Since the aura only effects vehicles until vet 5, I do not find it that powerful. I generally can only field 1 or 2 other vehicles besides the Command Panther at most, hopefully a KT among them. The Command Panther is also very expensive, if I've been able to save up 225 fuel I almost always push to 310 for the KT, which is much more durable and effective for the cost. The Command Panther ultimately is only an expensive, harder-to-vet Panther if you don't have other vehicles around for it to boost. I'll bring the Command Panther in second to back the KT up and help it maneuver. Sure, if you try field a Command Panther & a KT, you probably will never get enough fuel for any other vehicle. However, ALL vehicles benefit from the CP aura, including the Mechanized-truck vehicles. (instead of a KT) A more efficient way to use the aura is to field: - 2 P4s - or completely skip T4 and spend the fuel on Luchs/Pumas if needed That way, you do get a small army of vehicles which: - Is self-spotting - At Vet3 becomes at least 25% more effective - At Vet4 becomes absolutely devastating, and can kite their counterparts Don't forget that Coordinated Fire will turn any vehicle into a monster when you want to swarm enemy heavy tanks. Jump back to quoted post26 Mar 2016, 03:38 AMCulainn However you seem to find the Command Panther really powerful, and reaching high vet levels in many games. I suspect then you are mostly playing big multiplayer games where there are a lot of vehicles. The most useful attribute of the Command Panther has never been its aura IMHO, but its visual range. Which I find indispensable. Joseph Your intuition is correct. This is why I am asking to, at least, cap the CP Veterancy to a reasonable level (somewhere just below Vet3): - Since it's incredibly rare for the CP to even reach Vet2/3 on 1v1s it will not affect balance for that gamemode, anyway - Capping the veterancy of the unit will make it be a bit less unbalanced for bigger games. Neither OKW nor the Spec Ops doctrine struggle at all in the extreme-late game. Thus I don't see any reason at all not to go ahead with that change. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Royal Artillery + Sexton Balance25 Mar 2016, 19:30 PM Jump back to quoted post25 Mar 2016, 17:59 PMMyself Valentine should has less pop and come without radar abilities. It should have a different vet 1 ability maybe defensive smoke. Radar and able to can sexton support should be an upgrade limited to 1 similar to command upgrade... I don't think the extra range is as important as people make it out to be. Longer range = bigger scatter (both vertical and horizontal). Horizontal range also doesn't have a cap. Also, using the radar to target the barrage implies you want to target your Sextons into the fog of war. That's an added 25% scatter penalty. Thus, in order for a supercharged shell (400 range) to have a chance to reliably damage the center of the barrage, the AoE of the Sexton shells would have to be buffed to match the Stuka 50Kg bomb levels (and I'm not even exagerating). To be honest, I think that the greatest buff Relic could have given to rocket artillery is to reduce their max range by 30-40%. That way, people that insisted on doing max-range rocket artillery barrages would not complain about their performance (which led us to the previously-overbuffed state). PS: Funny tidbit. It seems that the Valentine Sexton-barrage related ability spawns call-in artillery flares at the target location. For 15 Munitions, you could use it as a decoy barrage. Sadly it requires a Sexton to be present on the field to use. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Royal Artillery + Sexton Balance25 Mar 2016, 18:21 PM Addendum: If you are considering of buying a Sexton just to clear some garrisons or emplacements (Pak43, LeFH), consider getting a Firefly instead. The Firefly is bit more expensive, however, it is much more reliable to fulfill either role. Both units occupy the same popcap, but the Firefly can also double as an AT unit, if needed. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Royal Artillery + Sexton Balance25 Mar 2016, 17:52 PM Sexton is suxton, pretty much for every reason outlined by Katitof and Myself. I'll throw some of the missing pieces of the puzzle here: Cost: - Priest: 475(ish) MP, 115 Fuel, 16 Popcap (crew can pop out of the tank though) - Sexton: 375 MP, 90(ish) Fuel, 14 Popcap Main barrage differences (Priest vs Sexton) - 200 vs 160 damage - 8 vs 6 AoE radius - 7 vs 5 shells - 180 vs 135 range (doesn't make much difference, tbh. You need to move close enough with the Priest either way) - Cooldown at vet2 (63 vs 54 -- only thing that Sexton does better) Note about creeping barrage: - The Priest uses the sexton weapon profile when doing weapon barrages, which means less damage, less AoE. Never use creeping barrage with Priest. - The Sexton fires 8 shells (the Priest still fires 7 shells) when doing a creeping barrage. - However, the target area of the creeping barrage with the Sexton feels 2-4 times more spread than the Priest. Given the AoE profile of the Sexton, it's not worth it either. PS: The Valentine definitely needs a popcap decrease. There is no way this tank is worth 12 Popcap (same as Cromwell or the P4 -- both variants) In: COH2 Balance
Thread: OKW Command Panther veterancy is a bit broken25 Mar 2016, 13:25 PM Jump back to quoted post25 Mar 2016, 13:15 PMsiuking666 It's because it is never intended to let you reach vet 4/5 in a normal game, otherwise: OKW - Super late game powerhouse roadmap If it is not intended that the Command Panther ever reach vet4/5 (and partly Vet3), why not remove these bonuses altogether to ensure that this situation never arises? This is what my OP is (mostly) about. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: OKW Command Panther veterancy is a bit broken25 Mar 2016, 01:01 AM Jump back to quoted post24 Mar 2016, 22:25 PMJuanElstretchyNeck Channel your complaining into Brit emplacements (Advanced cancer emplacements specifically). They are OP from 1v1 tight through to 4v4, and a MUCH more significant balance issue than this. BY FAR The Command Panther is and has been an issue at least ever since the OKW rework when the CP was made extremely accessible. When Relic concluded OKW rework, it seems that they have left out some rough edges. Without the community pointing these out, I doubt that Relic will ever even consider fixing these issues. Sure, I agree with you that the Command Panther is and has been overshadowed by other, more blatantly-broken commanders and abilities. However, that doesn't stop the Command Panther from also being broken. IT has been already 4 months now, and I believe that it is now finally the turn for the Command Panther to also be rebalanced. I've already diverted enough of my attention to do the analysis carefully, and I've presented my case in the OP, and the subsequent responses. Now, this is where I struggle to understand the point you are trying to make. Do you argue that something in my analysis doesn't hold? Or perhaps that I am drawing a wrong conclusion somewhere? I would appreciate your feedback. However, I cannot see a single good reason not to point out such a glaring balance oversight. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: OKW Command Panther veterancy is a bit broken24 Mar 2016, 12:18 PM You make some very good points Krötentöten. Jump back to quoted post24 Mar 2016, 08:52 AMKrötentöten Now remember, the AURA of the CP does not affect the CP, exception beeing the vet 0 aura, what does this mean? Actually, it doesn't. The reason it SEEMS that the aura affects the CP is because it simply gets better sight range directly on the base stats (as pointed by Katitof -- but it's 55, not 50!). That means no juicy 10% Speed/Acceleration bonuses on the CP! Jump back to quoted post24 Mar 2016, 08:52 AMKrötentöten At vet 0 it is an ordinary okw panther with the bonuses from its vet 0 aura (the ONLY bonus the CP gives itself, 2 CPs give each other their aura but it does NOT stack on units that already have the aura, it simply alternates between the 2 CPs auras depending on which one is nearer i assume) It depends on what you mean by ordinary, and which Panther (OKW or OST) you are comparing it to. All 3 versions are vastly different. The differences are the following: OST Panther - Let's use this as the baseline (base stats + veterancy) - Blitzkrieg: +15% speed, -25% received accuracy OKW Vanilla Panther - Improved MG DPS (I'm not a connoisseur. Probably around +30-50% MG DPS) - Improved moving accuracy (+30% compared to OST Panther) - Combat Blitz: +40% speed, -50% received accuracy, +100% accuracy - Vet4 & Vet5 Command Panther - Improved sight range (35 -> 55) - Improved MG DPS (same as vanilla OKW Panther) - Combat Blitz (same as OKW Panther) - Offensive vet starts lagging behind at Vet2 & Vet3 (not a typo: The CP doesn't gain the moving accuracy bonus of the OKW panther) Jump back to quoted post24 Mar 2016, 08:52 AMKrötentöten Now keep in mind that the CP also has substantialy higher vet requirements than the normal panther whilst doing LESS dps from vet 3 on as it only get 10 % reload vs 30%. As a sidenote, there are also -5% reload bulletins for the Panther whilst the CP just has 5% top speed. Bear in mind that any ability that increases the damage output by 50% against a target, also increases the speed of attaining veterancy by 50%. If I am reading the threshold values correctly, the value of the Vet thresholds for the CP is only 15% higher than the normal panther (I might be completely wrong however, and I would love to know how to read this properly). This means that a Command Panther with Coordinated Fire can vet up faster than a Vanilla Panther without Coordinated Fire. Jump back to quoted post24 Mar 2016, 08:52 AMKrötentöten This means that by itsself based on stats the CP is inferior to the normal panther at any vet over vet 2 beeing almost identical at vets below or at that. This also means that a panther and a CP duo at over vet 2 is weaker than a simple double normal panther duo. If you have 3 tanks the setup with the CP is favoured. This assumes that you don't have access to the Coordinated Fire. Even if the price/bonuses of Coordinated Fire were balanced according to the Soviet Version, the entire OKW army would benefit from it (including infantry & AT guns): - +50% extra damage vs vehicles that you need to wipe - +50% veterancy due to extra damage against said vehicles Btw, on smaller-sized games it might make sense to mix a Command Panther with light vehicles, instead of a Panther duo (that is just too much role duplication, when the CP already hardcounters heavy vehicles). That way one can easily afford to grow a larger vehicle based army (a 70-sight range Puma off-the-bat is ) Jump back to quoted post24 Mar 2016, 08:52 AMKrötentöten The sight is useful. It can spot for itsself. Its not that much more than useful though as often you use combined tactics in which sight range is already given through other units. For the smaller gamemodes, you are mostly correct. However, I would reappraise this statement in the context of mixed-team games. To see an example where the lack of self-spotting REALLY hurts look no further than the USF end-game: - Their only effective units (Jacksons) at this stage are fragile and rely on outranging the enemy to even be useful - As OKW, I can easily take advantage of it, by diving in, getting my kills and diving out - Jacksons will probably die if they try to chase me back - That's not necessarily because my Panther will kill them; they might run into AT guns, schrecks etc - By the time the Jackson spots these, it will be dead - Instead, a self-spotting armoured blob (with sweepers) will almost never walk into an ambush Jump back to quoted post24 Mar 2016, 08:52 AMKrötentöten And last but not least. The british command vehicle gives the stronger buffs to infantry and tanks from the get go for only 75 min. It does half all the stats from the carrier but if its an aec or carrier who cares. -30 reload, +30 acc -30 rec. Acc. You are correct. The UKF aura vehicle offers massive bonuses to the player. However, the UKF command vehicle offers some very clear tradeoffs: - The radius of the command aura is nowhere near as half the size of the CP aura - The unit you place the buff on becomes useless - It makes the affected unit as slow as molasses and cannot keep up with an offensive composition - Most cheap-enough units worth to become CPs are also very slow to begin with My personal take on the bonuses Let's assume that the CP received no combat veterancy at all. Now, let's consider the following two features (i) Coordinated Fire and (ii) Vetting aura, and examine what happens if the Command Panther would lose one, or both of these features. The Panther retains: - Coordinated Fire & Vetting aura: Fielding the CP as the first armoured unit is a no-brainer - Only Coordinated Fire: I would still field the CP first; Coordinated Fire also benefits my infantry - Only Vetting Aura: I would only field the CP first if the aura vet was really worth it. Otherwise, I would field a vanilla vehicle first - Neither bonus, but a non-vetting Aura: (With or without combat veterancy) I don't think that the spotting bonus of the CP alone is worth it, unless the CP becomes significantly cheaper; I'd make another vehicle first instead -- no brainer. In: COH2 Balance