The range of the P.F. might be 30 the range of the ability is less (about 15-20).
I knew I slipped up somewhere. I stand corrected
The argument still holds (self-sighting for early warning & bleeding the enemy blob like a herd), even though the P.F. example I gave was a fail. I can't think of any AT ability with 30 range though
IMO this change isn't really solving the problem of volk blobbing and is just promoting the silly-looking tactic of kiting with tanks. Tanks were built for pushing, putting pressure on the enemy and allowing an assault to break the grind of trench warfare.
Actually, that change would work really really well to dissuade blobbing. The reasons are:
(most) Tanks have:
- 40 range with their main guns
- 35 range with their MGs
- 35 sight range (i.e., without infantry screening for them)
With the proposed nerf:
- Tanks will be able to sight for themselves
- Since they can sight for themselves, they will be able to fire while stationary (and thus increase their accuracy)
- Tank MGs will finally play a role vs infantry
The reason why self-sighting is important is that currently you would have to use infantry to screen for your tanks.
- If you used one squad of infantry, they would be chewed alive by the advancing blob
- If you used multiple squads of infantry (counter-blobbed), they would be chewed alive by artillery
- (and you would still have to micro your tanks)
Now, I reverse this question to you. The panzerfaust has range about 30 (equal to the proposed nerf to the Scrheck). When was the last time you saw a grenadier blob rush to <insert tank name here> frontally and get a panzerfaust off?. (edit: I was incorrect. The Panzerfaust has range about 15-20)
It will be exactly the same with a 30-range Panzerschreck. Volks will literally have to hide or flank to get their schrecks off.
I wish this entire wishlist makes it into the game some point soon.
Sure, the wishlist doesn't solve 100% of the balance issues in the game (no patch can ever claim to do; meta always shifts). However this would solve 90+% of the most pressing balance issues that are common the entire spectrum of all gamemodes, 1v1 through 4v4.
I wish that your recommendations would have been heeded earlier, as some of these issues have been left to fester there, for a few months now.
Thanks for all the effort (up to now & the future). Best of luck!
If one wants to compare the T-34/76 with other factions one should probably compare it with:
M4A3
Cromwell
PZIV
as those are vehicles in the same class/role with the T-34/76
The T-34/76 is an end-game tank for the Soviets tech tree. Soviets don't have non-doc Comets. Soviets don't have Panthers. Soviets don't have anything that even remotely resembles a non-doc KT. In short, Soviets have absolutely no way to spend their fuel, if they ever managed to hoard it.
On the other hand, Soviets' non-doc infantry bleeds hard in the late-game. They need some way to tap into their fuel reserves (if they have any), so that they can conserve MP for something else? Since the best non-doc generalist tank that Soviets can get is the T-34/76, I have the following questions for you:
- What problems would a fuel-sink T-34 create to balance (as opposed to the current MP-sink T-34). The T-34 already comes late. With a hiked fuel cost, it will arrive even later.
- If Soviets have no fuel-sink units, how can we ever claim that MP and Fuel costs can ever be converted to one another?
- How does your answer to the previous question reflect on the statement you made 5 hours ago on a different thread? Aren't those two statements contradicting each other?
The cost of a vehicle it the combination of manpower cost and fuel...that is what you pay to get a vehicle...
To give you an analogy, Bitcoins would be worth absolutely nothing if you could not trade with money (directly) or buy goods with Bitcoins (indirectly). In the micro-cosmos of CoH2 OKW, OST and UKF receive something like Bitcoins as their fuel income. Soviets receive something like Dogecoins as their fuel income.
If we accept that T-34/76 was balanced around its normal price when it was in T3 than is performing like a 310/100 unit. When it was moved, its stat did not change, it simply become cheaper...
1. I would say that 310/100 is WAAAAAAAYYYY~~ to overpriced, but whatever. Let's accept 310/100 as a fair price, for the sake of argument.
2. Now, let's have a look at the MP-to-Fuel ratio of tanks of other factions. I am listing them here in decreasing order:
3. Let's discard OKW MP-to-fuel-ratios as outliers.
Fuel prices to OKW vehicles were hastily applied in a hotfix. Nevertheless, I would argue that this contributes to the Volks-blob-enabling MP float of OKW.
5. Let's pick 2.7 (Comet) as the desired MP-to-Fuel ratio we want to give to T-34's
6. Let's decide on the conversion ratio between Fuel and MP. Let's say it's 1 FU = 5 MP (even though I might be completely off)
A proper, systematic way to determine the proper ratio would be one of the following:
- Look at fuel conversion abilities (OST supply drop)
- Extrapolate from similar-size vehicles with different MP-to-Fuel ratios (e.g., Comet vs Panther, P4 vs Sherman)
- Compare the income rates for MP and Fuel for the lategame (like the one that Dullahan hinted to earlier in the thread)
I'm too lazy to find the right ratio right now, but I will probably edit this post later, once I have determined it.
7. Let's tweak the cost of the T-34 in a way such that it respects the constraints we set in #5 and #6
The algorithm is as follows:
1. Calculate the MP-converted sum cost (S):
- Convert Fuel to Manpower (T-34 used to cost 100 FU. Thus, it the fuel cost translates to 500 MP)
- Add the converted Fuel to the Manpower (S = 500 MP + 310 MP = 810 MP)
2. Transform the MP-to-FU ratio into MP-to-MP ratio (R)
- The desired ratio is 2.7:1
- Thus, for ever 2.7 points of MP, we should get 1 point of FU (= 5 MP according to our conversion)
- Thus, our MP-converted sum, should account for 7.7 parts (2.7 parts for the MP cost, 5 parts for the converted FU cost)
3. Divide S by R.
- We have 7.7 parts in total for 810MP
- Thus, 1 part = 105 MP
4. Calculate the MP cost
- The MP cost consists of 2.7 parts
- Thus, MP = 283
5. Now, calculate the FU cost
- Subtract the MP cost from the MP pool (810 - 283 = 527)
- Transform the cost remainder into FU (527 / 5 = 105)
6. Thus, we transform the cost of T-34 from 310 MP / 100 FU to 283 MP / 105 FU.
The assumptions I made were that:
- 310 MP/100 FU was an OK cost to begin with (it's not)
- That an MP-to-FU ratio of 2.7 is OK (it might be too high, still, for a fragile vehicle)
- That 1 FU = 5 MP in the lategame (this could clearly be wrong)
If any of the assumptions are incorrect, adjust the inputs and rerun steps of the algorthm.
Cheers.
...and thus ram should increase the T-34/76 chance to survive or be more deadly if the tank was vetted.
The problem with ram is that if it too effective people will start throwing away their vet 0 tanks, if its not it will not be worth used on vetted tank.
On the other hand if it improves with veterancy it can become either a good option for a vetted tanks (better chance or survival, very big cooldown is probably the way to go)or a good trade off for sacrificing a vetted tank (more penetration damage/criticals).
That's a fair point about ram veterancy. Even if we go down that road, the T-34 will not become neither the first, nor the last tank that depends on a gimmick to stay competitive (e.g., most non-Cromwell UKF vehicle Vet0/Vet1 abilities).
is this thread generally about T4 or specifically about T-34/76?
I don't think it's a useful exercise to examine units in a vacuum. The T-34 is part of T4, which is part of the Soviet non-doctrinal lategame. If we could solve all problems at once with a minor change, I don't see why we shouldn't do it.
The way I see it, there are three issues:
1. The T-34/76 issue (cost-inefficient for when it appears)
2. The T4 issue (it's too reactive)
3. The Soviet late-game issue (too doctrine-dependent)
Issues #2 & #3 are, naturally, intertwined (you can't tech beyond T4, thus you need doctrines for anything extra). If I'm not completely mistaken, both issues revolve around Soviet pricing (no useful fuel-sinks).
To give you an example of what I mean by fuel sinks, consider OKW. If you manage to secure double fuel as OKW for long enough, you can afford to tech for a King Tiger and, pretty much seal the deal. The pricing of the King Tiger also allows you to field more Volks/whatever MP-thing you need, while you wait for fuel to accumulate. This is a choice you can make proactively. Now, compare to the Soviets.
If Soviets manage to secure fuel sinks for long enough, and they choose to go for a non-doctrinal T4 push, I don't think they have the option to pump anything useful out. Their aggressive T4 options are bottlenecked by MP (how many schecked Volks or Pak-40's does each T-34 have to bleed before it can pay itself off?).
What I am thinking of, now, is solving issue #1 in a way that gives Soviets a useful fuel-sink unit. With a valid fuel sink, and good map control (which has to be earned), Soviets will finally be truly be able to pump out T-34's. If we do that, teching to T4 can become a proactive choice (do I swarm my enemy in T-70s -now- and hope that works, or do I, proactively, invest in T4 and start swarming my enemy in T-34's? -later-).
Then, to address issue #3, Soviets will be able to afford both:
- Having generalist turreted tanks on the field
- Reinforce their infantry (which should be bleeding them quite hard by that point)
I've updated the OP with a FAQ section, which basically addresses the following brought up topics:
- Why not just move T-34/76 to T3
- Why not move T-34/76 to T3 and add T-34/85 to T4
Actually my opinion about how to improve T34/76 (as many other EFA units) is to first fix abilities and veterancy bonuses.
T-34/76 could probably become far more attractive with a better VET 1 ability and with ram that scaled with veterancy.
Other than that one could make some of the less used doctrine actually provide some sort of bonuses to T-34/76. For instance Industry could allow building T4 without T3 but giving access to only T-34/76.
First, let's prioritise fixing the stock Soviet options for the lategame. Soviet lategame doesn't have to be stellar, but it should, at least, not punish the player for building late-game vehicles that the player paid good MP/FU to tech up to.
We can improve things about the T-34/76, sure. However, a terrible pricing tradeoff (MP-for-fuel-at-T4) will still remain a terrible pricing trade-off. Without a decent trade-off, Soviet T4 will remain completely lackluster (other than build SU-85s to counter KTs).
Slightly Off-Topic, but a suicidal ability (Ram) doesn't really feel like a good fit for a Veterancy bonus. Especially given the terribleness of the pricing.
I have not argue that T-34/76 is too cheap or that it correctly priced, my argument is that one can not simply ignore fuel cost...
I agree. However, in order to continue the discussion, please give me a concrete MP/FU cost for T-34 which has a ratio of 3-to-1.
Then I will guide you through a process that will help determine a pricing scheme for T-34 that is better adapted for the late-game (when T4 is built).
PS: Could we please continue this discussion on the dedicated thread? You make some valid observations, but consider that:
- People that care about the T-34 might not get to read your observations.
- People that don't care about the T-34 have to read our comments on a thread that had nothing to do about the T-34 to begin with.
Your ideas sound crazy at first, but on a second reading they actually do make sense when combined together. You might want to use something like
If I read the general direction of your changes correctly:
- You want to make OKW forces a bit more specialized at what they do (e.g., Volks for AI, Raketens for AT early game)
- You want to remove the extreme reliance of healing to teching (healing kit changes; Brits already have something similar, why not OKW)
- You want to give OKW infantry more field presence vs other infantry (FlakHT buffs, transport HT), since OKW lacks cost-efficient suppression, and OKW will lose the schreck blob (thus, they have to gain something).
- The transport HT will also help making aggressive pushes vs mg-walls, without having to rely on smoke that much.
I think that I like the general direction of your changes, as it will transform the MedHQ from the turtling option to a bona-fide Infantry-based aggression option for OKW (which OKW currently lacks).
However, I will nit-pick on the following details:
Raketens become beasts when they hit Vet1 (they retain their full movement speed when stealthed). Removing schrecks from Volks may justify increasing the AT efficiency in other sections. However, we don't want a stealthy AT to become -too- spammable. (basically, I should play your version of OKW before I can have an opinion whether 240 MP is too low or not).
Sd.Kfz 251 halftrack added to Battlegroup headquarters. Cannot be upgraded with flame projectors.
Forward retreat points + reinforcement HT might give OKW too much field presence when compared to OST. This might not be a bad thing though as:
- Volks don't have schrecks (thus, you can't defend your FRP as efficiently as before).
- Teching costs to medium tanks are increased.
- OKW lacks proper suppression to prevent aggressive pushes.
Jagdpanzer IV can now only camouflage while not moving
Decrease Jagdpanzer IV popcap to 12 from 14
Basically, JP4 is afflicted by a terrible bug that makes it invisible. The stationary cloak ability is one way to bypass the brokenness bug without having to fix it.
However, even then, I would have to disagree with the Popcap reduction. JP4 starts off on a very strong foot against other tank destroyers (SU85, Firefly, Jackson) in terms of cost-efficiency. Vet1 cloak notwithstanding, JP4 gets extremely powerful veterancy powerful bonuses that radically transform the unit.
Perhaps you might want to argue front-loading some of those Vet bonuses to Vet0?
It's almost the same story with this weapon. MG34 starts as the worst MG in the game. However, upon reaching Vet2 it starts out-suppressing more expensive MGs (e.g., Vet3 50cal or Vickers). Perhaps some front-loading of Vet would also help this unit.
Finally, there's a few details missing (e.g., Vet5, doctrinal heavies: Command Panther, Jagtiger etc). However, those are mere details that can be ironed out. I think I would like the general feel of the design though.
I am simply arguing that saying that T-34/76 cost is not low just because its manpower cost is not as low as it fuel cost is not a valid argument...
The cost of vehicles is the combination of manpower and fuel not just the manpower.
T-34/76 might or might not work but it is centrally cheap and cost efficient in mid game...
The cost of vehicles is not just the mere sum of their constituent resources, for the simple reason that:
- You can never ever increase your MP income in this game
- Soviets have absolutely no mechanism to trade fuel-efficiency for MP-efficiency.
Other factions (except for USF) have tanks that are more MP-efficient than they are Fuel-efficient. This allows those factions to tap into those Fuel reserves when MP becomes a bottleneck. Soviets simply do not have that option. At all (doctrinal or non-doctrinal).
To draw an analogy. Assume you have a PC (Soviets) with:
- A hard drive disk from 1990 (MP efficiency)
- A graphics card from 2016 (Fuel efficiency)
And now, assume that you are trying to run office applications (CoH2). No matter how expensive a graphics card you buy, your applications will be crawling still. This is because the bottleneck is the absolutely horrid hard drive disk you are still using (that 300 MP cost for T-34...).
Your PC would be running better with an SSD and a graphics card from 2010, and it would also be cheaper, too.
Now, please answer yourself the following question:
- If you argue that 250 MP / 80 FU cost for a T-34 is too low, find an appropriate price for T-34 that has the same MP-to-fuel ratio as the other mediums (approximately 3:1)
I don't care what the MP/FU cost will be. I just want a concrete value.