Update on the 27th preview

Comet should get its rear amor nerfed to 100, in fact only KV series should keep their rear protection (which is an out-dated design)

BTW, have you ever consider giving soviet a REAL tier4 tank aka make T-34/85 a stock unit while make a scaled downed t-34/76 back to tier 3? Soviet T4 is quite expensive(and even more expensive with cons' side upgrades) , T-34/76 is outmachted when it's came out, and flanking is equally if not more suicidal since panzerfaust available to volks now

With a buffed SU-85 and T-34/76 buffs I think it would be enough. Sure the T-34 is not the greatest tank, but it means you can field a cheaper tank screen which does decently at warding off infantry and vehicles while also being a risk to other mediums up close or via flanking. SU-85 meanwhile deals with the heaviest of tanks so as long as it can be screened. More tank combined arms that way.

KT in real life has 2x more armor in rear than T-34 front armor.

In real life t34s out produced the king tiger by about 172 to 1, uf we are going realism were going to need bigger maps...

Also now with the mg buff to the t34 and the su85 not being a 120fuel zis the t34 will shine, its a conscript style tank (support and snare) that had nothing to support..

I am quite happy for the changes to heavy tanks. It has always seemed silly to me that heavies can reliably bounce shots to their rear by medium armor.

Medium armor is already outclassed by heavy armor, and it is almost impossible to stop a heavy without flanking it if you don't happen to have a heavy TD or another heavy to combat it. Flanking is a core element of tank combat, and there is nothing more cancerous than pulling off a great flank into several enemy supporting AT pieces to finish off a tank, only to watch helplessly as your micro is rewarded with several bounces. There is nothing worse than setting up a great flank, only to watch in horror as your 2 panzer 4s fail to kill the enemy engine-damaged IS2 due to lucky bounces, and are forced to pull back.

With the popcap changes to heavies, it is actually more expensive to get 2 mediums than 1 heavy, yet the heavy is more efficient and easier to use. A rear armor hit should almost always be a penetration, if not always in my opinion. Not allowing for this makes heavies a no-brainer unit type, punishing players for not using them.

My only criticism with these changes is that they are not uniform, and that they are pretty arbitrary values. Why is the KT's rear armor set to 150, whilst the IS2's armor is set to 160? Why is the JT and ele rear armor set to 110, while the ISU's rear armor is unchanged? Why have the churchill tanks and the sturmtiger been ignored with these changes?

Since release German tanks have been pretty much hit constantly with the nerf stick.

Can I remind you that on release it took 6 T34s to even stand a chance against SINGLE vet2 P4?

I don't know if Miragefla actually has any say on what Relic decide to include in their balance patch. Otherwise the patch wouldn't look that incoherent. Do you?

Now, regardling heavy rear armour nerf:
1. This is a move to the right direction.

It promotes better combined arms. If you want to achieve a breakthrough with heavy tanks, you better support them properly.

2. I think that Axis are hit much much harder by this than Allies.

The rear armour of heavies has been nerfed from 180-ish to 110-ish. Since most Axis weaponry has penetration values above, or near 180, these weapons never had issues penetrating the rear armour anyway. The only exceptions to this rule (if you look up penetration values) are P4's and Pumas.

If Allies' heavy armour was more prominent, this change would reward people to build something other than Panther-Panther-Panther (for the simple reason that the P4 will fire faster than the Panther).

3. Some costs may need to be lowered to compensate (it might be unnecessary; theorycrafting).

Since swarming heavies will, now, become the de-facto tactic, the heavy tank user should, perhaps, be given a discount. That way, they will have some resources to actually spend on supporting their tanks.

Alternatively, some heavy tanks could trade some of their front armour for an increased HP pool (like the Churchills do). The rear armour nerf will ensure guaranteed penetrating hits, but the slightly-higher HP pool will ensure that taking out heavy tanks is not trivialized.

where are the nerf for RM IS
buff to ober and green ?
nerf to armor but no buff to pen speed hp ?
that's seems biased when aaa got in the dev team ?

Why would I even build an Elefant any longer? That unit is designed to be caught with its pants down. Now with incredibly thin side armor.

Why would I even build an Elefant any longer? That unit is designed to be caught with its pants down. Now with incredibly thin side armor.

You build an Elephant to two hit medium tanks, create a giant anti-tank no go zone, as well as be a hardcounter to other heavy tanks like the IS-2. The heavy TDs were always weak to mass mediums due to their long reloads. It's why you have other AT units nearby.

Rear armour is your last line of defense, not the first. Furthermore you still have a 1040 hp pool which means you can take seven hits before exploding.

Does this mean the IS-2 gunner is no longer drunk?
IS-2 absolutely slaughters things when it hits so this is a lovely buff

IS-2 was given horrible scatter, when they buffed its AT capabilities and changed its role from super accurate squad wiper with a slow reload, to a tank that would excel in tank combat with its increased penetration and lower reload time. (it was given bad scatter to balance it out against infantry)


Now if they are keeping the same reload with buffed scatter values, its going to be a nightmare for Ostheer, since it will start 1 shotting squads, and the forums will be engulfed in flames from all the rage it will cause, i think that its reload time should be nerfed, so you could rush it with tanks, but it would still have its 1 shot squad wipe capability

Why would I even build an Elefant any longer? That unit is designed to be caught with its pants down. Now with incredibly thin side armor.

1) There is no side armor in coh2 and never was.

2) Doing less reverse raids towards allied AT might help a bit, eventually learning what covering with ATGs is.

All heavies had no weakness.

This is why everyone always went for them, limit or not.

There were houndreds of games lost, because despite perfectly executed flanks with multiple vehicles, heavies weren't going down due to sheer armor they had on rear.

You might want to consider medium armor more now.
Heavies still are powerful option, just no longer the only option.

1) There is no side armor in coh2 and never was.

2) Doing less reverse raids towards allied AT might help a bit, eventually learning what covering with ATGs is.

I wrote two posts earlier that there is no side armor but the decreased rear armor has an effect on the sides.

"Learning what covering from AT guns is." Coming from you... the person that never played the game. Thanks, I know what that is, I´m quite high ranked. In a 2vs2 you will get rushed and the Allied player might lose a tank while just driving around Elefant and the Paks. Any combination of defense including an Elefant is incredibly clumsy. The Elefant might hit once then turn. The Paks need to face different directions so at the end of the day you have one Pak firing.

miragefla.
Do you have any other plans of adding another form of OKW AT to replace shreks besides faust?

I wish they'd add an AT halftrack to OKW T1 (PZ elite in COHF, had an AT halftrack unit)

I wish they'd add an AT halftrack to OKW T1 (PZ elite in COHF, had an AT halftrack unit)

would make my day. That or the Bergtiger

Im confused as to why so much hate for the rear armour... I know that relic made it so sometimes your tank WILL drive into combat backwards but a good player doesnt do that... A good player also doesnt yolo his heavy tank into the enemy lines unsupported (unless you are Soviet and trying to cap territory of course) ost have AT out the ass to support their tiger and okw cab crafty (2/4 dedicated AT units can be invisible) and now they have a snare... Iirc the KT has 1280hp, thats 8 penetrating hits 8!!!!! if if your KT is in a situation that 2 mediums can fire 4 shots each at your rear armour you desirve to lose it... The problem is ATM you probably wont... Combined arms and supporting your super tanks is the name of the game now and IT. Is. GLORIOUS. (I hope) but yea, mines.. A you have 73 t34s but they are fodder if they dont have an engine, cause they aint going to pen the front of you heavy without a heavy blessing from RNGesus..

Man, the Land Mattress got nerfed quite abit with that delay

Couldn't you have made it 7 CP with an increased Manpower Cost?

Great Job Miragefla!! I like these changes!
Do you have any plans with the Panther?

So many people complaining about heavy rear armor nerf... Just want to say that Imo these changes would be great to have in the game because it rewards tactical movement so much more than it does atm. And I would always build Ele/JT/KT/Tiger/IS2 and so on if I can afford one of them because they are adding such a high value to your tank force for a much more efficient population cost in comparison to medium tanks. Never forget that population is a real important ressource.

miragefla, Thanks for making your mod. You have gotten a lot of crap over something that you don't even have control over(miragefla can't force Relic to put any of the proposed changes into the main game). I am happy to try out the mod when it releases and see what changes are good and which could use some more work. Overall I think some of the overhauls listed are a long time coming and once people play them for a bit will at least be a little less paranoid(no way these forums will ever be quiet).