Sdfksz 222 Revamp

The main issue here isn't how good or bad the 222 is necessarily. Its the fact that UNLIKE EVERY OTHER FACTION, ost has no light tanks at all. T70, Stuart, AEC, Luchs, ost has none of these. Miragefla is proposing we give ostheer that in the form of abuffed changed (due to cost adjustment don't forget) 222.

Unlikely other factions, Sov and USF don't have stock heavy tanks
Unlikely other factions, OKW doesn't have stock HMG
Unlikely other factions USF and brit don't have stock rocket arty
etc...

See what I mean?

The main change I think is necessary is just making it easier to micro. Whether it's size is too big or it's the weird acceleration/deceleration of the car or the weird pathfinding that often has the 222 spin in circles, I don't know; just fix it.

222 can easily become OP with other changes because if you are skillful with it, you can definitely force a squad wipe with it which is very powerful for a vehicle that only costs 180 MP and 20 fuel.

I'm ok with it being weaker than other vehicles, but I should be able to rewarded for microing it well and keeping it alive. As it is, I just try to get a squad wipe and play super conservative because the pathfinding is absolutely atrocious and unpredictable.

But then again, I think the biggest fix to the entire game is to just make units more responsive and decrease all the pointless code they have in the game for stuff like "sticky" movement to "cover" or slow unit response times that prevents micro and promotes blobbing strats.

222 is a microcosm of that big problem in the underlying engine and code.

Unlikely other factions, Sov and USF don't have stock heavy tanks
Unlikely other factions, OKW doesn't have stock HMG
Unlikely other factions USF and brit don't have stock rocket arty
etc...

See what I mean?

There's a difference between not having and the unit that is there being poor-mediocre. I doubt anyone wants the 25pdrs to suck just because they're non-doc indirect fire when they should be good as its the British forces only means of indirect-fire outside of doctrines and the mortar pit.

Even with an accuracy boost for the 222 for max range and moving, it's not a laser gun people claim it to be and I'd even live with no/lower bonus accuracy against infantry if it proves to be too much of a mini-luchs. What the 222 needs, however, is the ability to actually be a unit that can kite and be a soft counter to light armour with a tad bit more hp and MG responsiveness. Terrible head-on in most cases, but enough that it can at least threaten armour without coming into harms way.

Doing this would also open more diversity than the current meta of "hug-pak wall until tanks" as there's no reason for Ostheer to deploy the 222 in most cases other than as a reactionary response to other scout cars or if they want to play with map hack spotting scopes. It's not a mobile response to anything but the weakest infantry units and the M3.

But I'll stop and say the simplest thing to get the point across:

"More expensive, better performance. Make 222 a Scout Skirmisher."

There's a difference between not having and the unit that is there being poor-mediocre. I doubt anyone wants the 25pdrs to suck just because they're non-doc indirect fire when they should be good as its the British forces only means of indirect-fire outside of doctrines and the mortar pit.

Even with an accuracy boost for the 222 for max range and moving, it's not a laser gun people claim it to be and I'd even live with no/lower bonus accuracy against infantry if it proves to be too much of a mini-luchs. What the 222 needs, however, is the ability to actually be a unit that can kite and be a soft counter to light armour with a tad bit more hp and MG responsiveness. Terrible head-on in most cases, but enough that it can at least threaten armour without coming into harms way.

Doing this would also open more diversity than the current meta of "hug-pak wall until tanks" as there's no reason for Ostheer to deploy the 222 in most cases other than as a reactionary response to other scout cars or if they want to play with map hack spotting scopes. It's not a mobile response to anything but the weakest infantry units and the M3.

But I'll stop and say the simplest thing to get the point across:

"More expensive, better performance. Make 222 a Scout Skirmisher."

We already see in this game that price isn't a performing counter to OP units. Buffing 222 will simply result in killing entirely USF/Sov T1 and any doctrinal light units they can field. With in addition making them on the backfoot where the 222 push and at the same time in trouble while attacking vs MG42 locking territories.
222 is like any other scout car: past 5 minutes if they are still alive their role is to scout and protect your flank from lone caper squads.

Now if you consider scout cars as a hole need a better role mid-late game, we can discuss it but I'm not sure something good will came from it without changing too much of the general gameplay.

To me it always seemed that the main problem is it takes damage from small arms while enemy light vehicles coming around the same time do not.

How about:

Scoutcar to T1, autocannon upgrade available when T2 teched
Hotchkiss at T2 as counter to allied light tanks


But as someone said, the US Lt tier would need a rework in this case or in the case of SC being buffed as per your suggestions.

+1.I like this post very much.It would be good changes.

Hahaha no.

How come if a soviet unit is weaker it's called ''Asymetric balance''

But if a axisunit is weaker then it's ''broken''.

222 can literally solo a SU-76. It can also kill the american flak track.

So no.

Hahaha no.

How come if a soviet unit is weaker it's called ''Asymetric balance''

But if a axisunit is weaker then it's ''broken''.

222 can literally solo a SU-76. It can also kill the american flak track.

So no.

It 'can' kill a flak halftrack the way grenadiers 'can' kill an IS2 with fausts... strictly theoretically.

To me it always seemed that the main problem is it takes damage from small arms while enemy light vehicles coming around the same time do not.

How about:

Scoutcar to T1, autocannon upgrade available when T2 teched
Hotchkiss at T2 as counter to allied light tanks


But as someone said, the US Lt tier would need a rework in this case or in the case of SC being buffed as per your suggestions.

That would completely remove sov T1 play, force soviets into early upgrade if T2 was to have any chance and remove brits from the game.

I love it when people make suggestions wile seeing as far as teching of their fav army goes and only that army.

Scout car is nearly "perfect" the way it is... Its Scout, harasher chaser, pusher, flanker and weapon team killer. I might even build on in a late game when using spotting scopes only see more map.

Its like Ost sniper huge hemorroid in bottom when used right. Major mp drain when not.

Only way i could see it enchanced is to make it scale differently by upgrades. (how about you need to open scout car by chooser upgrade Scoutcar/Hotchkiss like bofors/Aec?).

Hahaha no.


222 can literally solo a SU-76.

If you let your su-76 wich hard counters light vehicles get destroyed by a 222 you did something horrible wrong.

If you let your su-76 wich hard counters light vehicles get destroyed by a 222 you did something horrible wrong.

Same could be said about T34 vs stug or P4 vs SU-85 or cromwell vs JP4 and so on...

Yet these long range TDs are dying to these tanks, which are hardcountered by TDs.

222 is able to outmanouver and destroy SU-76, it shouldn't happen, but its possible, just like any other non turreted TD vs any other AT capable vehicle. Difference is, unless you're assaulting ISU with Puma, there is no second even close comparison to 222 vs SU-76 regarding fuel cost differences, even if we take T34/76 vs JT into account.

Hi IMO revamp of 222 is bad way to go. Should be replaced to avoid debates like: is OP/notOP is useless etc...

revamped 222 or unit that replace it shoud

reliable:
a) kill other light (T1) vehicles
b) kill snipers (be able to pursuit them and kill them even if this mean destruction on retreat)
c) move swiftly around battlefield and give some line of sight
d) die to medium vehicles in frontal confrontation

optionally:
e) kill weapon teams crew in reasonable time
f) do damage to light/medium vehicles (M10 for example) when hit REAR armor


options:

1)Replace 222 with 25O half-track in version 250/9 this is 250 half-track with 222 turret on top.
- More armor = more resistance to small arms = more time to deal with sniper and/or light vehicle
- this armor buff cant affect AT nades and AT rifles performance against this vehicle

2) Replace with puma in COH1 style
- Allies have bigger window to utilise light vehicles (higher fuel cost of puma)
- Puma with 222 autocanon turet can act like light vehicle - later on can be upgunned for mid/late game where 222 suck (except with scope to sight hack)
- OST get vehicle that can be usefull longer
- Opponent make bigger damage to OST player if puma is destroyed compare to 222
- fuel and MP cost and cost must be different to current puma (part of cost will be hiden into gun upgrade)

I see where you're coming from and the points are valid. However, I don't like the idea of the game's destructive pacing getting more and more fast. Units die fast now and I'm worried that if this continues, we'd end up with a strategy game no different to the rest where retreat button isn't as a crucial point since wipes are so easily done.

222 is able to outmanouver and destroy SU-76, it shouldn't happen,

Well Su-76 is open topped tank with should be able to kill with nades and smallarms when shot at back. one of the things that i detest in russians in COH2 second being that molotov don't damage german tanks. BUT balance is balance...

Katitof reads only what Katitof wants to see.

Katitof in a nutshell.

Looks pretty good, the current 222 is in a wonky spot.

Plus I'd be glad to see any reason to make Bazookas more worth investing in.

Same could be said about T34 vs stug or P4 vs SU-85 or cromwell vs JP4 and so on...

Yet these long range TDs are dying to these tanks, which are hardcountered by TDs.

222 is able to outmanouver and destroy SU-76, it shouldn't happen, but its possible, just like any other non turreted TD vs any other AT capable vehicle. Difference is, unless you're assaulting ISU with Puma, there is no second even close comparison to 222 vs SU-76 regarding fuel cost differences, even if we take T34/76 vs JT into account.

Getting you unturreted units flanked, unsupported and destroyed is clearly a L2P issue...

"...222 is able to outmanouver and destroy SU-76, it shouldn't happen..."

why it should not happen exactly? any reason or justification?

Is there any relevance in ability to flank and fuel cost difference?
The fuel cost difference is su-76-222=75-15=60 while the JT-T34/76=245-80=165 and thus greater, so I have to assume you made a mistake meant ratio.

Even then , the fuel cost ratio (although fuel cost ratio is actually irrelevant to ability to flank) su76/222=75/15=5 fuel cost ratio Kingtiger/AEC=260/50=5.2 thus higher.

Does flanking vehicles has anything to do with this thread topic that is the 222 performance?


Once more the suggested changes are available in a mod, it is to try it and give a better opinion on the matter...

If Ostheer was in fact OKW then that would be a great idea.

But not, so not.

Why does it make more sense on OKW? OKW already has a light tank.

A Panzer III would be more thematically appropriate. Either an M or an N, depending if you want the 50mm long gun or the 75mm short gun. Could be buildable from T2 after teching T3 (building not required, since it's in T2). T2 would be too early, and T3 would be too late, so I think that's an okay medium.

I mostly wanted to see the Hotchkiss because I though tit was a shit cool unit in vCoH that I would want to see again. It happens to actually have a chance to fill a role for Ostheer, so I'd like to see any new light tank at this point.

After they buffed the Stug and gave it a higher price it arrivés alot later, thus giving allied light tanks a longer window of usefullness.

Though Ost have Fausts, Tellers and the great Pak it is kinda tough to handle Light tanks. Though imo they sacrifice a stock light tank for alot more stock options.

After they buffed the Stug and gave it a higher price it arrivés alot later, thus giving allied light tanks a longer window of usefullness.

It arrives 20 to 40 seconds later depending on map control, unless you're base pinned.