Posts: 647
Thread: ISU-15216 May 2014, 13:18 PM
please relic, for fuck's sake, remove both tanks from the game. neither tanks brings any real credit to the game other than frustration on the receiving end. elefant wipes all soviet armour and isu152 steadily bleed the entire german army away. 100range is stupid, their firepower is even more stupid. leave this kinda shit for single player AI compstomp fun, please dont put them in MP. In: COH2 Balance |
Thread: Concepts of soviets is wrong that why they so boring11 Apr 2014, 02:33 AM
so it was all a word game (CAN vs WILL). forget it, this is going nowhere. might as well say that notice i used the word DESTROY a panther not DISABLE a panther. also, you did nothing to correct my "stats". last time i checked u called it horrible and hyperbole. milkacow did a better job with that, dont say what you didnt do. we might as well argue 2x osttruppen can kill snipers, so spam them early, it will be fine.
doesn't it mean for ram to penetrate, there's a 160/270 chance of doing so? then engine crits are applied? what u said means the same to what i wrote. no because i worded it differently? In: COH2 Gameplay |
Thread: Concepts of soviets is wrong that why they so boring10 Apr 2014, 15:48 PM
yes im trying to wrap my head around his words and have really not gone hostile on him. but i do admit that his tone of replying me has hit a nerve, same with ginnungagap.
correct me if im wrong but for frontal rams, there's a 59.25%(160/270) to penetrate or it will be a failed ram which means only crewshock and basically 280mp/85fuel very well wasted. so what you are saying is, there's a 59.25% chance to succeed in blowing up the gun and then a dice is rolled, where a 70% chance to damage the engine. whereby now, to do that, there's overall a 59.25% * 70% = 41.475% chance to destroy its gun and damage its engines. or 59.25% * 15% = 8.8875% * 2 chance to destroy its gun and destroy its engines, as destroyed engine or immoblized means almost the same thing. it is still a pretty small %. like i said, i was basing it off guess work 5% may be that far off, from 17%. but are you going to tell me 17% is a good deal? of course the values get better with rear rams, but honestly, in a tight game, that don't always happens and when it does, its not that t34s are awesome, its the panther caught out of position. then like i said many times, that 2nd t34 is going to run into all sorts of problems when the panther limps away. its going to go right into enemy territory and a squishy tank like that wont last long. im talking 80pen 120dmg per shot here. a single t34 will take a long time to do any substantial damage because of its crappy gun. and within that timing, supporting forces would have already covered its retreat.
yes i know that, we all do. but if you read before, the topic was 2x t34 > panther. which i decided that hey, this is all fiction, it takes ALOT more than 2x t34 to destroy a panther and tried to explain with a better scenario, a more probable one. but was then shot down by wooof and all that shit that happened. what i listed may not be 100%, but its far closer to the facts than 2x t34 > panther.
erm, what is this, cheap attempts at snide remarks? alright im gonna stop here, feel free to gather everyone with a tag below their portrait and attempt to tear my posts apart. In: COH2 Gameplay |
Thread: Concepts of soviets is wrong that why they so boring10 Apr 2014, 04:15 AM
not sure how you are confused by that, since these terms are used in game too but okay, i will give you the benefit of doubt. seems like my guess work isnt all that far away. 5% compared to 8%. u know how to play the game, no doubt about that, but that doesn't mean i am a complete retard at it either. i know my shit and i hope you respect that. whatever i described, is what most people would have faced and im sure many will agree in 1 way or another. we know, the best way for any soviet tanks(NOT ASSAULT GUNS, read t34s, t34/85s, is2, kv1) kill a panther or any heavies for the matter is to destroy its engine and smack its rear armour and that means a ram has only ~8% chance for that. another way is to button it down or damage its engine(mines, AT nades) and pelt it from far with su85s but that is NOT the topic here. now onto the soviet perspective, its a 100% chance for the t34 to lose its gun AND its engine. not only that, the ability is free but the t34 isn't. its 280mp and 95fuel of potential losses per pop and there's no escape for the t34 either because its going to sit there unable to move and fire back. 100% chance compared to 8%, i think its quite obvious who wins in this kind of probability regardless how devout you are to the rng god. so when that 8% dont happen, in the other 92%, its going to be a damaged engine or a crew shock. in both cases, it still retains some mobility and can escape from its position quite unscathed due to its 270 frontal armour. now, the 2nd t34 will try to chase it down, but will eventually run into support, whether you like it or not and will have to back off. now in this case, the initiative is in german's hand, there's a potentially dead t34 because its engine is dead, another limping away and all that stands between 280mp and 95fuel loss is the soviet support forces. this initiative is intuitively taken and the goal now is no longer destroying the panther but protecting and recovering that t34. this is what most people face when going t3 for t34 and facing p4 or panthers. no 2 t34, no matter how smartly used, will ever get to kill a panther, unless its caught WAY out of support which this case, this panther should die and not to the credit of t34s, but because of the lack of care from the german player. lastly, i was responding to this.
if you, as a senior strategist is to believe that t34s are what is described here by our dear forumite, you should remove that tag immediately and pass it on to someone more worthy and smarter. but im sure even you aren't that deluded. In: COH2 Gameplay |
Thread: Concepts of soviets is wrong that why they so boring9 Apr 2014, 19:58 PM
same back to the guy who said 2x t34s will beat a panther.
im trying to compare it not in a vacuum but a real game situation. no sane german player is going to leave a panther unsupported in any case. or maybe you would? i sure as hell wouldnt and will make sure it has a proper escape route.
a panther retreating back into its lines and a t34 chasing it down its more or less going to move straight into gren support, whether its flanking or not. its far easier and faster to fire off a faust at a charging t34 than it is moving up soviet support. by the time soviet support gets up, the t34 will be already crippled so now its not a battle of 2x t34 vs panther, but a battle of infantry and AT support trying to take to kill each other's crippled tanks.
might get a nice 1-2 shots, remember its 80pen value vs panther 112.5 rear armour, a nice 70% chance to penetrate. or 80 pen vs 270 front armour, about 30% chance to penetrate. also, the panther has a deceleration of 5.2 acceleration of 2.3 max speed of 5.5 compared to a t34 deceleration of 5.6 acceleration of 2.3 max speed of 5.8 at values these close and both with engine damage applied, its difficult to imagine how the t34 will get behind and flank when 1 is backing off and another accelerating. i would imagine it to be a rather comical view of 2 slow ass tanks chasing each other. unless the german player slips up and shows the panther's ass, all the more deserving to lose the panther.
i dont know where u get the numbers from, but did you factor in the penetration values of 160 against a 270 armour? what happens if it doesnt penetrate? then 59.25% chance to what? destroy its engine? damage its engine? destroy its main gun? destroy both its main gun and engine? are these things also calculated exclusive of each other or together? what exactly happens when the panther only gets damaged engine and working main gun? please factor all of them into a single value and that should be the true % of tanks getting a damaged gun AND a destroyed engine. it is because i cant find these numbers that i just gave a 5% as guesswork based off experience, note that i put the 'idk' there, means i could be wrong, no need for the hostility. In: COH2 Gameplay |
Thread: The problem with tank gameplay 9 Apr 2014, 19:20 PM
there's loads of it and most of it are mechanics rather than the roles of units. but i agree that medium tanks are underpowered, not because they are bad, its because everything else is too powerful. the numbers that relic decided to use are honestly too lethal, 160dmg on any tank is way too much and it gets more ridiculous from there, with is2 getting 240dmg per shot and elefants getting idk, feels like 320dmg to me. this leaves medium tanks with only 640hp to deal with this lethality. it only takes 4 shots to destroy a medium tank and everything with 160dmg has almost 100% penetration chance. this leaves very little room for error with medium tanks when it doesnt take long for any of the tank destroyers to destroy them. for comparison, vcoh shermans did ~80ish damage per shot and had 636hp, same with panzer4 although they have slightly lesser hp(600), but more penetration to compensate. even dedicated tank destroyers like the wolverine, panthers or fireflies had about 110-136ish damage, nothing like 160dmg, 240dmg, or 320dmg here. also anti tank guns had 150dmg. so it took quite a while of sustained fire, even from tigers, pershing and end tier dedicated tank destroyers to actually destroy a tank, so medium tanks can actually buy enough time for supporting forces to deploy. 2ndly, rear armour hits can be deflected in coh2, no idea why, i think its stupid and has to go. everything should and must penetrate rear armour, regardless of t70 or a tiger tank. its a major tactical blunder/golden opportunity and should be punished/rewarded for letting/making it happen. this is why i think tank combat is a bloody mess. In: COH2 Gameplay |
Thread: Shreked PGrens... Balanced or no?9 Apr 2014, 19:00 PM
there will always be squad wipes and rng matters as long as tank guns keep their accuracy tables and design. by design in coh2, all tanks miss their infantry targets and rely on AOE and scatter to lands shots. the lower the scatter, the closer the rounds land on their intended target and the bigger the AOE, the easier it is to catch infantry in it. so with this design, none of the shots are calculated hits and extremely based on RNG. 2ndly, infantry squad AI cannot be controlled, whether you like it or not, they will and are going to bunch up. so all it takes is a shot fired near a bunched up squad, let AOE do its work, more often than not, squad will get wiped. it happens more often with is2/isu152 because of their massive AOE. so its like sort of a freak accident with a stray shell. and it works both ways. sometimes, rng is so bad, it takes about 5-7 shots and everything misses. other times, it takes a single shot to nail the entire squad. compared to vcoh, the targeting tables were perfect, shells were calculated and homed into their targets. an AI tank has a good chance of nailing infantry regardless of its AOE. so a shell with virtually no AOE could still be depended on to kill infantry and shots landing on troops bunched up will only kill the target it was intended for, due to close to 0 AOE. this alone greatly reduces 1 shot wipes and freak accidents that happens often in coh2 and keeps things alot more consistent too. so i have no idea why they went with the new system, maybe it was easier to implement and simplified things, lesser tables to work on. maybe they thought this would streamline stuff. laziness do fuck shit up sometimes and i suspect this is 1 of 'relic's laziness'. i hope they do go back to their 'beloved' targeting tables and bring back units that we can actually depend on. In: COH2 Balance |
Thread: Concepts of soviets is wrong that why they so boring9 Apr 2014, 18:35 PM
Is it possible to close this discussion?! It`s just trolling from a soviet fanboy trolling? not sure but there are some valid points thrown around here and there.
like this. no 2x t34 is going to bitchslap a panther ever. in most cases, the panther gets an engine damage and limps away. while the t34 used for ramming has a dead engine and a destroyed gun, a sitting duck for long range AT weapons and schrecks. the 2nd t34 is almost guaranteed to run into panzerfausts and is now trying to flank a slowed panther while being equally slow itself. that t34 will never be able to hit the panther's rear armour in any case and will have to back off or face supporting forces desperately trying to cover the panther. and remember, it is still taking panther fire all these while and probably as good as half dead and trying to limp away. in the worst case scenario, the panther loses its engine AND main gun, is now a sitting duck for soviet supporting forces. but lets face it, the chances of these happening is close to idk, 5%? which leaves it free for the 2nd t34 to flank it, but t34 being t34 with its close to useless main gun in AT, supporting german forces have more than enough time to take it out before it actually destroys the panther. so the 2nd t34 will have to back off, which then leaves the panther free for repairs and the 1st t34 still a sitting duck. a better scenario would be in a 2v2, the panther gets rammed by t34, su85s and AT guns are brought up to finish it off. but panthers being panthers, its frontal armour will probably save it from AT guns fumbling around to get within range to fire and su85 are risking panzerfausts shots or schreck support. and that was before the latest patch. now with german infantry superiority, AT guns will get hosed down, conscripts dying all over the place, its a massive waste of resources for the soviets. this is why 2x t34 is never going to do anything to a supported panther under average micro. In: COH2 Gameplay |
Thread: Next patch predictions9 Apr 2014, 12:56 PM
I agree. I don't like the fact that a unit called in with a lot manpower can be 100% countered by a muni ability. Perhaps if they added a bit of scatter to it so you could atleast pray to the RNG god to save you. nah i rather not, good unit placement and spread should negate artillery strikes. if its too close to hq, nerf its massive range. im talking fixed artillery emplacements for both factions In: COH2 Gameplay |
Thread: Next patch predictions9 Apr 2014, 11:06 AM
manpower losses hurt alot harder than 240munitions, especially at late game. considering its aa sure hit, unless someone flinches and misclick, its 240 munition well spent. In: COH2 Gameplay |
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Relic Entertainment
cblanco ★ 
보드카 중대 
VonManteuffel 
Heartless Jäger 
I can understand him, we worked hard to get an understanding of the game and mechanics. We do not know everything, but a good bit. A lot of people do not know this, but post random numbers or say things work this or that way, even though they are not sure about this. That can easily annoy you a lot. Ignorance, subjectivity and favoritism (real and imagined) are huge problems of the CoH2 community.
