Concepts of soviets is wrong that why they so boring

Is it possible to close this discussion?! It`s just trolling from a soviet fanboy

trolling? not sure but there are some valid points thrown around here and there.

Pure Fan Fiction. Ram almost never works when you want it. And don't tell me about flanking a Panther. Either you just Blitz away, or your support units (in most cases Terminator G 43 Grenadiers) will take care with a nice Panzerfaust to the T34.

like this.

no 2x t34 is going to bitchslap a panther ever. in most cases, the panther gets an engine damage and limps away. while the t34 used for ramming has a dead engine and a destroyed gun, a sitting duck for long range AT weapons and schrecks. the 2nd t34 is almost guaranteed to run into panzerfausts and is now trying to flank a slowed panther while being equally slow itself.

that t34 will never be able to hit the panther's rear armour in any case and will have to back off or face supporting forces desperately trying to cover the panther. and remember, it is still taking panther fire all these while and probably as good as half dead and trying to limp away.

in the worst case scenario, the panther loses its engine AND main gun, is now a sitting duck for soviet supporting forces. but lets face it, the chances of these happening is close to idk, 5%? which leaves it free for the 2nd t34 to flank it, but t34 being t34 with its close to useless main gun in AT, supporting german forces have more than enough time to take it out before it actually destroys the panther. so the 2nd t34 will have to back off, which then leaves the panther free for repairs and the 1st t34 still a sitting duck.

a better scenario would be in a 2v2, the panther gets rammed by t34, su85s and AT guns are brought up to finish it off. but panthers being panthers, its frontal armour will probably save it from AT guns fumbling around to get within range to fire and su85 are risking panzerfausts shots or schreck support.

and that was before the latest patch. now with german infantry superiority, AT guns will get hosed down, conscripts dying all over the place, its a massive waste of resources for the soviets. this is why 2x t34 is never going to do anything to a supported panther under average micro.

no 2x t34 is going to bitchslap a panther ever.

hyperbole

in most cases, the panther gets an engine damage and limps away. while the t34 used for ramming has a dead engine and a destroyed gun, a sitting duck for long range AT weapons and schrecks.

if the panther gets engine damage, it also loses its gun. and now youre adding in paks and schrecks.

the 2nd t34 is almost guaranteed to run into panzerfausts and is now trying to flank a slowed panther while being equally slow itself.

and now grens too. where is the soviet support?

that t34 will never be able to hit the panther's rear armour in any case and will have to back off or face supporting forces desperately trying to cover the panther. and remember, it is still taking panther fire all these while and probably as good as half dead and trying to limp away.

back to hyperbole

in the worst case scenario, the panther loses its engine AND main gun, is now a sitting duck for soviet supporting forces. but lets face it, the chances of these happening is close to idk, 5%?

59.25% from the front. 100% from the back.

im not even going to bother with the rest of this horrible post

It would be cool to have an option for a strong German early- mid game and a strong soviet mid to late game.

hyperbole

same back to the guy who said 2x t34s will beat a panther.

if the panther gets engine damage, it also loses its gun. and now youre adding in paks and schrecks.

im trying to compare it not in a vacuum but a real game situation. no sane german player is going to leave a panther unsupported in any case. or maybe you would? i sure as hell wouldnt and will make sure it has a proper escape route.

and now grens too. where is the soviet support?

a panther retreating back into its lines and a t34 chasing it down its more or less going to move straight into gren support, whether its flanking or not. its far easier and faster to fire off a faust at a charging t34 than it is moving up soviet support.

by the time soviet support gets up, the t34 will be already crippled so now its not a battle of 2x t34 vs panther, but a battle of infantry and AT support trying to take to kill each other's crippled tanks.

back to hyperbole

might get a nice 1-2 shots, remember its 80pen value vs panther 112.5 rear armour, a nice 70% chance to penetrate. or 80 pen vs 270 front armour, about 30% chance to penetrate. also, the panther has a

deceleration of 5.2
acceleration of 2.3
max speed of 5.5

compared to a t34

deceleration of 5.6
acceleration of 2.3
max speed of 5.8

at values these close and both with engine damage applied, its difficult to imagine how the t34 will get behind and flank when 1 is backing off and another accelerating. i would imagine it to be a rather comical view of 2 slow ass tanks chasing each other.

unless the german player slips up and shows the panther's ass, all the more deserving to lose the panther.

59.25% from the front. 100% from the back.

im not even going to bother with the rest of this horrible post

i dont know where u get the numbers from, but did you factor in the penetration values of 160 against a 270 armour?

what happens if it doesnt penetrate? then 59.25% chance to what? destroy its engine? damage its engine? destroy its main gun? destroy both its main gun and engine? are these things also calculated exclusive of each other or together? what exactly happens when the panther only gets damaged engine and working main gun? please factor all of them into a single value and that should be the true % of tanks getting a damaged gun AND a destroyed engine.

it is because i cant find these numbers that i just gave a 5% as guesswork based off experience, note that i put the 'idk' there, means i could be wrong, no need for the hostility.

a panther retreating back into its lines and a t34 chasing it down its more or less going to move straight into gren support, whether its flanking or not. its far easier and faster to fire off a faust at a charging t34 than it is moving up soviet support.

no good soviet player is going to drive 2 unsupported t34s into a line of german inf supporting a panther. or maybe you would?

i dont know where u get the numbers from, but did you factor in the penetration values of 160 against a 270 armour?

thats exactly how you get that percentage.

what happens if it doesnt penetrate? then 59.25% chance to what? destroy its engine? damage its engine? destroy its main gun? destroy both its main gun and engine? are these things also calculated exclusive of each other or together? what exactly happens when the panther only gets damaged engine and working main gun? please factor all of them into a single value and that should be the true % of tanks getting a damaged gun AND a destroyed engine.

it is because i cant find these numbers that i just gave a 5% as guesswork based off experience, note that i put the 'idk' there, means i could be wrong, no need for the hostility.

it just amazes me that someone would tell other people about unit match ups when they dont understand the topic. 59.25% chance to damage the gun and engine from the front. 100% to damagethe gun and engine from the back. there is no scenario where the engine is damaged and the weapon is not.

EDIT: i just realized you used the term destroyed engine to mean more than engine damage. some people use them interchangeably, which may have caused the confusion. those numbers are for a damaged engine of any kind. there are 3 types of engine crits: damaged, heavy damage, immobile. there is a 70% chance for ram to cause damage, 15% chance for heavy damage and 15% for immobile.

multiplied by the chance to pen, you have a 41.48% chance for engine damage, 8.89% chance for heavy engine damage, 8.89% chance for immobile and 40.75% chance for a deflection (crew shock).

no good soviet player is going to drive 2 unsupported t34s into a line of german inf supporting a panther. or maybe you would?

it just amazes me that someone would tell other people about unit match ups when they dont understand the topic. 59.25% chance to damage the gun and engine from the front. 100% to damagethe gun and engine from the back. there is no scenario where the engine is damaged and the weapon is not.

EDIT: i just realized you used the term destroyed engine to mean more than engine damage. some people use them interchangeably, which may have caused the confusion. those numbers are for a damaged engine of any kind. there are 3 types of engine crits: damaged, heavy damage, immobile. there is a 70% chance for ram to cause damage, 15% chance for heavy damage and 15% for immobile.

multiplied by the chance to pen, you have a 41.48% chance for engine damage, 8.89% chance for heavy engine damage, 8.89% chance for immobile and 40.75% chance for a deflection (crew shock).

not sure how you are confused by that, since these terms are used in game too but okay, i will give you the benefit of doubt.

seems like my guess work isnt all that far away. 5% compared to 8%. u know how to play the game, no doubt about that, but that doesn't mean i am a complete retard at it either. i know my shit and i hope you respect that. whatever i described, is what most people would have faced and im sure many will agree in 1 way or another.

we know, the best way for any soviet tanks(NOT ASSAULT GUNS, read t34s, t34/85s, is2, kv1) kill a panther or any heavies for the matter is to destroy its engine and smack its rear armour and that means a ram has only ~8% chance for that. another way is to button it down or damage its engine(mines, AT nades) and pelt it from far with su85s but that is NOT the topic here.

now onto the soviet perspective, its a 100% chance for the t34 to lose its gun AND its engine. not only that, the ability is free but the t34 isn't. its 280mp and 95fuel of potential losses per pop and there's no escape for the t34 either because its going to sit there unable to move and fire back.

100% chance compared to 8%, i think its quite obvious who wins in this kind of probability regardless how devout you are to the rng god.

so when that 8% dont happen, in the other 92%, its going to be a damaged engine or a crew shock. in both cases, it still retains some mobility and can escape from its position quite unscathed due to its 270 frontal armour. now, the 2nd t34 will try to chase it down, but will eventually run into support, whether you like it or not and will have to back off.

now in this case, the initiative is in german's hand, there's a potentially dead t34 because its engine is dead, another limping away and all that stands between 280mp and 95fuel loss is the soviet support forces. this initiative is intuitively taken and the goal now is no longer destroying the panther but protecting and recovering that t34.

this is what most people face when going t3 for t34 and facing p4 or panthers. no 2 t34, no matter how smartly used, will ever get to kill a panther, unless its caught WAY out of support which this case, this panther should die and not to the credit of t34s, but because of the lack of care from the german player.

lastly, i was responding to this.

Did you even try to make 1-2 games with germans and see how hard is to actually get one panther?
To kill a Panther you need 2 T34s smartly used. First T34 uses Ram = Panther disabled. Second T34 kills panther.

if you, as a senior strategist is to believe that t34s are what is described here by our dear forumite, you should remove that tag immediately and pass it on to someone more worthy and smarter. but im sure even you aren't that deluded.

if you, as a senior strategist is to believe that t34s are what is described here by our dear forumite, you should remove that tag immediately and pass it on to someone more worthy and smarter. but im sure even you aren't that deluded.

Senior what? You must confusing me with someone that wears this tag.
In all my soviet games - 34 multiplayer, 47 skirmhishes or something like that (I put the numbers here to spare the time of "good-will" people that will hurry to post them) - I never missed one RAM (damage to engine + main gun disabled that is). Maybe I'm just lucky, but for the record, I never ram to the front of a german tank. If I can't ram-it from side or from behind, I will simply not do it.

This is the fact, sorry if it doesn't sound good or real in your book. Further, I am sure that missing a ram even if you attack the rear or side is a real possibility.

He was talking about wooof...

He was talking about wooof...

Thought so, but the comment was under my line....

wongtp - wooof has a great understanding of the mechanics of this game and knows very well how this game works. The problem is that the majority of the community doesn't and it's often hard to discern what they actually mean. If they use the term "destroyed engine" a lot of people mean engine damage. Overall I think both of you tended to misunderstand the other or ignore parts of what he said.

First of all, wooof never said that one should use T34/76 to fight a Panther, but rather tried to explain the values and mechanics behind ramming a Panther. I think the style wasn't great though I can understand him, we worked hard to get an understanding of the game and mechanics. We do not know everything, but a good bit. A lot of people do not know this, but post random numbers or say things work this or that way, even though they are not sure about this. That can easily annoy you a lot. Ignorance, subjectivity and favoritism (real and imagined) are huge problems of the CoH2 community.

Second - I think you still have not completely understood how ram works. At least your previous post showed a lack, so for a better understanding - Upon ramming the following will happen:
If penetration >= armor (which is true for the rear armor of all tanks except IS-2 and Tiger) the target vehicle will get 160 damage and a critical (see below).
If penetration < armor, then with a penetration/armor chance it will be a successful ram (see case above), else it will fail, damage and cause a crew shock.
If the ram is successful a dice is rolled for the outcome. The main gun is always destroyed. With a 70% chance it causes engine damage (.4 movespeed/acceleration), 15% for engine destroyed (.1 movespeed/acceleration) and 15% for immobilized (0 movespeed/acceleration).
A Panther might be able to limp away with a damaged engine, but usually the second T34 can block it off. Still in 30% of all cases with a rear ram and and 17.78% of all cases for a frontal ram it is not able to flee (destroyed engine or immobilized). 17.78% is a lot more than your estimated 5%

Third - Panthers are heavily armored AT vehicles. Trying to fight them with T34 can work, but it's not cost effective. Panthers have a heavy frontal armor, good mobility and a great gun against tanks, yet they are lacking against infantry. A T34, a Con squad and an ATG are worth 280 MP + 85 fuel + 240 MP + 320 MP, totalling a value of 840+85*5 = 1265. A Panther is 520 MP + 145 fuel or a value of 1245. So roughly a Con squad, a T34 and an ATG have the same value as a Panther. Using those 3 in combination (AT nade / ram for disable, ATG for damage) are sufficient to fight a Panther. Soviet Tier 3 is not great in the anti-tank role, but is great to support T2 play (Quad HFT to protect ATG from infantry, T70 for scouting, T34 to chase down or last ditch defense with ram). Using those units alone is not really what they are meant for and will always be subpar to a combined force.

i know my shit and i hope you respect that.

You know nothing Jon Snow. Listen to wooof and leave the thinking to the horses, they have the bigger heads.

First of all, wooof never said that one should use T34/76 to fight a Panther, but rather tried to explain the values and mechanics behind ramming a Panther. I think the style wasn't great though I can understand him, we worked hard to get an understanding of the game and mechanics. We do not know everything, but a good bit. A lot of people do not know this, but post random numbers or say things work this or that way, even though they are not sure about this. That can easily annoy you a lot. Ignorance, subjectivity and favoritism (real and imagined) are huge problems of the CoH2 community.

yes im trying to wrap my head around his words and have really not gone hostile on him. but i do admit that his tone of replying me has hit a nerve, same with ginnungagap.

Second - I think you still have not completely understood how ram works. At least your previous post showed a lack, so for a better understanding - Upon ramming the following will happen:
If penetration >= armor (which is true for the rear armor of all tanks except IS-2 and Tiger) the target vehicle will get 160 damage and a critical (see below).
If penetration < armor, then with a penetration/armor chance it will be a successful ram (see case above), else it will fail, damage and cause a crew shock.
If the ram is successful a dice is rolled for the outcome. The main gun is always destroyed. With a 70% chance it causes engine damage (.4 movespeed/acceleration), 15% for engine destroyed (.1 movespeed/acceleration) and 15% for immobilized (0 movespeed/acceleration).
A Panther might be able to limp away with a damaged engine, but usually the second T34 can block it off. Still in 30% of all cases with a rear ram and and 17.78% of all cases for a frontal ram it is not able to flee (destroyed engine or immobilized). 17.78% is a lot more than your estimated 5%

correct me if im wrong but for frontal rams, there's a 59.25%(160/270) to penetrate or it will be a failed ram which means only crewshock and basically 280mp/85fuel very well wasted.

so what you are saying is, there's a 59.25% chance to succeed in blowing up the gun and then a dice is rolled, where a 70% chance to damage the engine. whereby now, to do that, there's overall a

59.25% * 70% = 41.475% chance to destroy its gun and damage its engines.

or

59.25% * 15% = 8.8875% * 2 chance to destroy its gun and destroy its engines, as destroyed engine or immoblized means almost the same thing.

it is still a pretty small %. like i said, i was basing it off guess work 5% may be that far off, from 17%. but are you going to tell me 17% is a good deal?

of course the values get better with rear rams, but honestly, in a tight game, that don't always happens and when it does, its not that t34s are awesome, its the panther caught out of position.

then like i said many times, that 2nd t34 is going to run into all sorts of problems when the panther limps away. its going to go right into enemy territory and a squishy tank like that wont last long. im talking 80pen 120dmg per shot here. a single t34 will take a long time to do any substantial damage because of its crappy gun. and within that timing, supporting forces would have already covered its retreat.

Third - Panthers are heavily armored AT vehicles. Trying to fight them with T34 can work, but it's not cost effective. Panthers have a heavy frontal armor, good mobility and a great gun against tanks, yet they are lacking against infantry. A T34, a Con squad and an ATG are worth 280 MP + 85 fuel + 240 MP + 320 MP, totalling a value of 840+85*5 = 1265. A Panther is 520 MP + 145 fuel or a value of 1245. So roughly a Con squad, a T34 and an ATG have the same value as a Panther. Using those 3 in combination (AT nade / ram for disable, ATG for damage) are sufficient to fight a Panther. Soviet Tier 3 is not great in the anti-tank role, but is great to support T2 play (Quad HFT to protect ATG from infantry, T70 for scouting, T34 to chase down or last ditch defense with ram). Using those units alone is not really what they are meant for and will always be subpar to a combined force.

yes i know that, we all do. but if you read before, the topic was 2x t34 > panther. which i decided that hey, this is all fiction, it takes ALOT more than 2x t34 to destroy a panther and tried to explain with a better scenario, a more probable one. but was then shot down by wooof and all that shit that happened.

what i listed may not be 100%, but its far closer to the facts than 2x t34 > panther.

You know nothing Jon Snow. Listen to wooof and leave the thinking to the horses, they have the bigger heads.

erm, what is this, cheap attempts at snide remarks?

alright im gonna stop here, feel free to gather everyone with a tag below their portrait and attempt to tear my posts apart.

so what you are saying is, there's a 59.25% chance to succeed in blowing up the gun and then a dice is rolled, where a 70% chance to damage the engine

No. Every time the ram penetrates (ie. when the gun gets destroyed), the rammed vehicle also receives an engine crit. This can either be engine damaged (70% chance) or engine destroyed/immobilized (15% chance each).

No. Every time the ram penetrates (ie. when the gun gets destroyed), the rammed vehicle also receives an engine crit. This can either be engine damaged (70% chance) or engine destroyed/immobilized (15% chance each).

+1

No, what OP means by saying "1 T-34 vs 4 PzIV" is that German units are a lot more easy to preserve while soviet tanks and infantry are just disposable crap in its current state. That why it seems that Germans wield bigger armies while Russians run around with like a single T34, single M5 and two squads of poor vanilla cons.
Of course, every player is different which makes every game different to. But most of the games I see Germans overwhelming and outnumbering soviets left and right.

wongtp - wooof has a great understanding of the mechanics of this game and knows very well how this game works. The problem is that the majority of the community doesn't and it's often hard to discern what they actually mean. If they use the term "destroyed engine" a lot of people mean engine damage. Overall I think both of you tended to misunderstand the other or ignore parts of what he said.

First of all, wooof never said that one should use T34/76 to fight a Panther, but rather tried to explain the values and mechanics behind ramming a Panther. I think the style wasn't great though I can understand him, we worked hard to get an understanding of the game and mechanics. We do not know everything, but a good bit. A lot of people do not know this, but post random numbers or say things work this or that way, even though they are not sure about this. That can easily annoy you a lot. Ignorance, subjectivity and favoritism (real and imagined) are huge problems of the CoH2 community.

Second - I think you still have not completely understood how ram works. At least your previous post showed a lack, so for a better understanding - Upon ramming the following will happen:
If penetration >= armor (which is true for the rear armor of all tanks except IS-2 and Tiger) the target vehicle will get 160 damage and a critical (see below).
If penetration < armor, then with a penetration/armor chance it will be a successful ram (see case above), else it will fail, damage and cause a crew shock.
If the ram is successful a dice is rolled for the outcome. The main gun is always destroyed. With a 70% chance it causes engine damage (.4 movespeed/acceleration), 15% for engine destroyed (.1 movespeed/acceleration) and 15% for immobilized (0 movespeed/acceleration).
A Panther might be able to limp away with a damaged engine, but usually the second T34 can block it off. Still in 30% of all cases with a rear ram and and 17.78% of all cases for a frontal ram it is not able to flee (destroyed engine or immobilized). 17.78% is a lot more than your estimated 5%

Third - Panthers are heavily armored AT vehicles. Trying to fight them with T34 can work, but it's not cost effective. Panthers have a heavy frontal armor, good mobility and a great gun against tanks, yet they are lacking against infantry. A T34, a Con squad and an ATG are worth 280 MP + 85 fuel + 240 MP + 320 MP, totalling a value of 840+85*5 = 1265. A Panther is 520 MP + 145 fuel or a value of 1245. So roughly a Con squad, a T34 and an ATG have the same value as a Panther. Using those 3 in combination (AT nade / ram for disable, ATG for damage) are sufficient to fight a Panther. Soviet Tier 3 is not great in the anti-tank role, but is great to support T2 play (Quad HFT to protect ATG from infantry, T70 for scouting, T34 to chase down or last ditch defense with ram). Using those units alone is not really what they are meant for and will always be subpar to a combined force.

AT nades aren't free. So add up another 25 fuel for research.

Also don't compare t34, cons and ZiS vs 1 panther.
We just agreed that unsupported panthers don't exist. Supporting grens and pios will eat your ZiS and cons alive, and they will Faust T 34 in a matter of second
So your argument is strictly theoretical, fuel calculations are wrong and the whole thing does not work in reality.

wongtp - wooof has a great understanding of the mechanics of this game and knows very well how this game works. The problem is that the majority of the community doesn't and it's often hard to discern what they actually mean. If they use the term "destroyed engine" a lot of people mean engine damage. Overall I think both of you tended to misunderstand the other or ignore parts of what he said.

First of all, wooof never said that one should use T34/76 to fight a Panther, but rather tried to explain the values and mechanics behind ramming a Panther. I think the style wasn't great though I can understand him, we worked hard to get an understanding of the game and mechanics. We do not know everything, but a good bit. A lot of people do not know this, but post random numbers or say things work this or that way, even though they are not sure about this. That can easily annoy you a lot. Ignorance, subjectivity and favoritism (real and imagined) are huge problems of the CoH2 community.

Second - I think you still have not completely understood how ram works. At least your previous post showed a lack, so for a better understanding - Upon ramming the following will happen:
If penetration >= armor (which is true for the rear armor of all tanks except IS-2 and Tiger) the target vehicle will get 160 damage and a critical (see below).
If penetration < armor, then with a penetration/armor chance it will be a successful ram (see case above), else it will fail, damage and cause a crew shock.
If the ram is successful a dice is rolled for the outcome. The main gun is always destroyed. With a 70% chance it causes engine damage (.4 movespeed/acceleration), 15% for engine destroyed (.1 movespeed/acceleration) and 15% for immobilized (0 movespeed/acceleration).
A Panther might be able to limp away with a damaged engine, but usually the second T34 can block it off. Still in 30% of all cases with a rear ram and and 17.78% of all cases for a frontal ram it is not able to flee (destroyed engine or immobilized). 17.78% is a lot more than your estimated 5%

Third - Panthers are heavily armored AT vehicles. Trying to fight them with T34 can work, but it's not cost effective. Panthers have a heavy frontal armor, good mobility and a great gun against tanks, yet they are lacking against infantry. A T34, a Con squad and an ATG are worth 280 MP + 85 fuel + 240 MP + 320 MP, totalling a value of 840+85*5 = 1265. A Panther is 520 MP + 145 fuel or a value of 1245. So roughly a Con squad, a T34 and an ATG have the same value as a Panther. Using those 3 in combination (AT nade / ram for disable, ATG for damage) are sufficient to fight a Panther. Soviet Tier 3 is not great in the anti-tank role, but is great to support T2 play (Quad HFT to protect ATG from infantry, T70 for scouting, T34 to chase down or last ditch defense with ram). Using those units alone is not really what they are meant for and will always be subpar to a combined force.

AT nades aren't free. So add up another 25 fuel for research.

Also don't compare t34, cons and ZiS vs 1 panther.
We just agreed that unsupported panthers don't exist. Supporting grens and pios will eat your ZiS and cons alive, and they will Faust T 34 in a matter of second
So your argument is strictly theoretical, fuel calculations are wrong and the whole thing does not work in reality.

Hell no, watch replays section, and 2v2, you will find that most of SOviet players that go to T3 make almost +6 T34/76.

but not because they want to

AT nades aren't free. So add up another 25 fuel for research.

Also don't compare t34, cons and ZiS vs 1 panther.
We just agreed that unsupported panthers don't exist. Supporting grens and pios will eat your ZiS and cons alive, and they will Faust T 34 in a matter of second
So your argument is strictly theoretical, fuel calculations are wrong and the whole thing does not work in reality.

everything that anyone has said here is theoretical. theres no limit to how complex the theory crafting can get here and honestly it proves nothing. you want to get picky about research? then lets factor in all teching costs for a panther and t34 as well. then you want to add grens and pios to support the panther? then we can add a maxim and shocks to support the con, t34 and zis. does that prove anything? no.

the whole point was heini said 2 t34s CAN (notice he never said WILL) kill a panther when used well. wongtp replied saying 2 t34s will never beat a panther, which is not true. when used properly, in the right situation, 2 t34s can beat a panther. thats not to say it will always work or is a recommended strategy, but the possibility is there.

i replied to correct his "stats" because they were purely subjective guesses. the fact is a t34 has a much better chance of disabling the panther than he made it out to be.

everything that anyone has said here is theoretical. theres no limit to how complex the theory crafting can get here and honestly it proves nothing. you want to get picky about research? then lets factor in all teching costs for a panther and t34 as well. then you want to add grens and pios to support the panther? then we can add a maxim and shocks to support the con, t34 and zis. does that prove anything? no.

the whole point was heini said 2 t34s CAN (notice he never said WILL) kill a panther when used well. wongtp replied saying 2 t34s will never beat a panther, which is not true. when used properly, in the right situation, 2 t34s can beat a panther. thats not to say it will always work or is a recommended strategy, but the possibility is there.

i replied to correct his "stats" because they were purely subjective guesses. the fact is a t34 has a much better chance of disabling the panther than he made it out to be.

so it was all a word game (CAN vs WILL). forget it, this is going nowhere. might as well say that notice i used the word DESTROY a panther not DISABLE a panther. also, you did nothing to correct my "stats". last time i checked u called it horrible and hyperbole. milkacow did a better job with that, dont say what you didnt do.

we might as well argue 2x osttruppen can kill snipers, so spam them early, it will be fine.

No. Every time the ram penetrates (ie. when the gun gets destroyed), the rammed vehicle also receives an engine crit. This can either be engine damaged (70% chance) or engine destroyed/immobilized (15% chance each).

doesn't it mean for ram to penetrate, there's a 160/270 chance of doing so? then engine crits are applied? what u said means the same to what i wrote.

no because i worded it differently?