I don't think that there should be a limit on heavy tanks. Instead they should just limit how much better heavy tanks are then mediums. If going for multiple smaller tanks is just as effective as calling in the smaller stuff in a different way its fine. multiple tigers should be slow and vunerable from the rear. It would courage combined arms to have meduim tanks support the heavier ones because they can react to flanks better.
this,
because of the inherently high damage that most tanks do, it gives an impression that heavy tanks need to do more to justify its great cost. but when heavy tanks are given damage so high, they can 2-3 shot mediums while taking little in return.
the idea of heavy tanks is that it should not have insane upfront firepower, but it is able to engage all targets effectively and provide very good sustained firepower and damage soak when used properly. it should not be the end all of tank combat and rape every other tank in game.
all anti tank damage should be limited to 80dmg and 120dmg for dedicated tank destroyers and heaviest of tanks(paks, ZiS, elefants, tigers). 160dmg to is2 because it has a slow rate of fire. leave 240dmg to the pak emplacement. also reduce hp on elefants, tigers to equalize with is2, and panthers down to 720
and bring back the concept of rear armour. all guns and infantry AT, barring small arms, should have 100% penetration to rear armour.
these 2 changes should allow medium tanks to be more viable in tank combat, where they can actually escape from sustained tank fire and not get destroyed by alpha strikes from heavy tanks due to reduced lethality. rear armour working as intended would give swarms of medium tanks a fighting chance if they can get shots on rear armour. |
Great... can't wait... I can kill all the German infantry with my ghost T-34 which has just been destroyed by blitzing P-IVs... Any mobility increase is useless whilst Germans have Blitz.
The biggest issue with the elefant IMO is the doctrine which has the stuka bombstrike in the same breath, meaning that the one thing that has a chance to kill it (ML-20 Howitzer) can just be reconned and annihilated in one shot.
not exactly, i think all artillery pieces should have some sort of resistance on bombing runs, kill the crew and leave the gun intact. its pretty horrible to see 600mp and god knows how long they need to build that thing, gets insta wiped by a recon and bombing run.
even if elefants doctrine was nerfed, there's nothing stopping the other fella in a 2v2 from doing the same and we are back to square one.
soviets needs to be less reliant on armour for AT duties in order to properly counter elefants, they need effective infantry based AT. a faster firing AT gun or AP rounds ability, move barrage to vet 1 skill and make it free/cheaper.
even if elefants were nerfed, i still wouldnt rush headlong into it with tanks or would i ever invest in tanks to deal with it. |
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i have came and go just the start of the year, i didnt need a major patch change to turn me away, just elefants was enough to throw me off from what might have been a good game.
looking at the infantry combat alone, which was about fine before except sniper cars, soviet ability to make conscripts with snipers at no tech cost, insane vet boosts to german units, especially the pgrens, now its a total mess, with gren + g43 dominating all ranges.
i think its better to wait out for more patches to stamp out all them glaring issues. |
The funny thing about the Elefant is that it's so slow and cannot fire targets from one side of the map to another like some people think. I had a 2v2 game yesterday in Rivercrossings. In this game as soon as I get my Elefant out my opponent shifts his tanks to another part of the map where the Elefant is not present. He also attacks full on with infantry on the side where the Elefant is while attacking the other side with mass tanks. Everytime I move my Elefant to react to the tanks on the other side he moves his tanks back to where the Elefant just left to harass my infantry.
The Soviet tanks can shift axis of attack a lot faster than the Elefant could react and the Soviets have many good anti infantry capabilities that the Elefant couldn't remove. So even though the Elefant is nearly invincible against Soviet armor, it's a slow cumbersome unit that's inaccurate, cannot kill infantry, consumes a lot of popcap, and has a low rate of fire.
think about this way, what is then stopping ur tanks from smacking the shit out of his infantry, a simple ostwind and a couple of mg42s + gren support is a great combination, have your mate fortify the other side with panthers and mines to prevent a flank on ur elefant.
unless ur team have been taking major tank losses prior to ur elefant and you are counting on the elefant alone for anti tank duties, then i suggest more work on keeping german armour alive or better unit combinations, paks and pgren schrecks for su85 spammers, p4/panther/stugs for t34 spammers.
so to shit on ur tanks moving to shit on his infantry, he has to move his tanks in range of ur elefant. which by then, you can shit on their tanks with the elefants and now, nothing short of a nuke can stop elefants from ravaging soviet armoured lines.
an elefant gives major strategic initiative, same with the isu152, though the latter can be more or less countered by well utilized non doctrinal panthers. |
1v1s can take a hike.
In team games PGs are the icing on the "I won because I hit the 'Build [ubermench unit]' button!" cake.
Something needs to be done, because silly BS like this was nowhere to be seen in vCoH.
Or, scratch that, silly BS like this could be dealt with in vCoH because every faction's infantry was armed with real weapons and weren't paper mache stick figures.
wrong. before some patch in vcoh, grenadiers and schrecks came with good penetration values and good accuracy at long range. players then screamed to nerf that piece of shit because if you could bring enough of them, grenadiers could shit on shermans and pershings and were still tough enough to support in infantry fights. also back then double schrecks were 150munitions.
they were only considered balanced because of later nerfs that made them unable to snipe infantry with each salvo and take out tanks at range, they became AT support, to prevent flanking armour.
yet in coh2, people defend these schrecks that have the same effectiveness as the old schrecks for some reason now. |
The Soviet losing the SU-85 means that he has no way to kill the PIV, Ostwind, Panther or Tiger from bleeding models and forcing retreats giving the Germans absolute map control. Without the SU-85 or Commander specific call ins, Soviets have no AT and no means of dealing with the German armour that forces them off the map and bleeds hard. The only other possible AT for Soviet is to plant lots of mines and hoping that the tank drives over the mine in front of an AT gun. Rarely does this actually work.
Looking at the German losing the PIV, Ostwind, Panther or Tiger means that the German has nothing to stop from the SU-85 shelling away at infantry missing 9 out of every 10 shots. The German is able to kill the SU-85 with a nice PGren with Shrek flank that can kill it in 3-4 volleys and if it gets caught by a faust it's easy pickings for the Shrek or Pak. Looking at the T-34's, T'34s actually have good anti infantry so can bleed and force off. However the difference is T-34's can and do drop to Shreks, Paks and Fausts. PIV's and anything above will not drop to AT nades and AT guns unless the German is bad, misplays and gets caught out of position or doesn't pay attention to his tanks.
Another thing to note is that Panzer Fausts will penetrate the frontal armour of a T-34 or SU-85 almost 100% of the time, where as the AT grenades with less range and requiring fuel to unlock have about a 66% chance to penetrate the front armour of a PIV or Ostwind, and a 50% chance to penetrate the Panther. Combining this with Blitzkrieg, Smoke, the higher health, armour and lower penetration of Soviet weaponry mean that controlling German armour is incredibly forgiving where as Soviet armour is insanely punishing and requires delicate and finesse micro.
Germans also have the option of going to PanzerWerfers to deal with Soviet infantry and AT guns after getting the Panther to deny the armour. So even if there are SU-85's on the field that killed a Panther the German can just ignore them by going for a heavy PGren with Shrek play or straight for Panzer Werfers. Katyushas are only on Tier4, so if the Soviet is stuck on tier 3 than Katyushas aren't an option. And it's so rare to see Katyushas anyway because Soviets need to spend all of their fuel on AT, where as Germans can spend Manpower(Paks) and Munitions(Shreks) to deal with AT keeping their fuel for other luxuries such as Panzerwerfers, Ostwinds or Brumbars for example.
+1
now with that soviet over reliance on su85, bring in the elefant.
zis is not forgotten, however neither is it terribly effective against german heavy armor. 57mm had AP rounds that would shit on panthers with 100% penetration, good firing rate and more importantly, increased damage.
but here, zis has to rely on ~50% penetration and a very poor firing speed. miss the 1st shot, bounce the 2nd, a full hp panther is now right behind your zis. while it has that nice novelty 60muni barrage, i'd rather lose that and get AP rounds and switch barrage for vet ability. |
Did this ever even work?
Pre-patch I always managed to stop blobs just fine with MG42s and when I played soviets I always engaged from many different angles at the same time because not doing so just resulted in my squads getting suppressed by one or two well positioned MG42s.
I agree with this. How did con blobs ever had a good chance against solid german play? mg42s and grens shut it down pretty hard. problem pre patch were vetted infantry durability, piss poor conscripts scaling and german infantry innate weakness to snipers.
the idea that you can get conscripts and snipers without insane teching cost is like dream come true for US in vcoh.
conscripts did run through red cover and survive with a good deal of hp left, that I agree, but grens and pzgrens were also culprits of that. |
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i suppose telling they can mirror it to the british one in vcoh? |
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i dont care for it, not like the community commander had any use, before and it sure has no use now.
do we really need to debate and bash each other for a shit commander that relic clearly not giving a shit for?
i may have said things too early but like whatever the relic guy said, patience, my young padawans.
im more interested in the ppsh changes, which i love and the fact that it comes in 3cp where by that time, german AI is less reliant on vanila grens and they will have to keep up with LMG or AI focused unit like pgrens or halftracks/scout cars.
but scout cars can do with either a armour buff or a hp buff. |
Ostheer Standard Artillery:
T2 81mm Mortar
T4 Panzerwerfer
Soviet Standard Artillery:
T1(a) 82mm Mortar
T1(a) ZiS Barrage
T2(b) SU-76 Barrage
T2(b) Katyusha
do germans REALLY need heavy artillery against infantry?
do soviets need heavy artillery against armour?
do german have problems with soviet armour once elefants is out?
do you REALLY need to come up with this comparison?
is this to educate me units that i did not know in both faction rooster? if so, i thank you my good man.
are we really going to start a debate on the advantages of panzerwerfer which all its rockets are fired without pause against a katyusha 4x4 barrage?
are we really going to start a debate on the reliability of 81mm sniper mortar vs vet1 wonder 82mm mortar with precision strike? |
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