The problem with tank gameplay

It is a simple design issue. And honestly I was pretty surprised to see it when I first started playing this game.

#1 issue in this game, concerning tank combat, is that medium tanks are underpowered. Simple as that.

This issue stems largely from core design problems.
1. Panzer 3 should have been the T3 tank. NOT the P4, especially not the long barreled P4. P4 should've been a mid game call-in tank available to several commanders. It's strange to me because the vast majority of battles featured in this game were during a time period when the P3 was far and away the core german tank during those early campaigns.

2. T34 should have never had ram and should have been given better armor/gun than the P3 but less speed and accuracy. Essentially, T34 would be a better unit stat wise, but the P3 would be a better unit if properly microed.

4. Both of these medium tanks should've been designed in a way to cost less than half of any heavy tank and perform in a way that if reasonably commanded two medium tanks working together could knock out a single unsupported heavy tank.

5. Elephant and ISU152 should have been left out of this game. OR atleast hard capped at 1 per player.




I guess they probably did the math and figured that most players would be more interested in fielding tiger tanks than P3/P4. I personally just don't like the design of it. Fielding heavies, especially the way they are balanced. Makes tank combat extremely shallow. There are very few actual "maneuver" tactics. Too much "tank" combat is determined by gimmicky abilities. Camo, dug in tanks, and maneuver should be the primary tactics.

The multiplayer is set in summer 1944.

The Panzer IV was the workhorse of the German tank arm at that time. What was left of the Panzer III was converted to StuGs or infantry support or sent to driving schools.

I don´t know what the concept of Panzer III vs T-34 would change. It would be the same situation we have now between the P4 and T-34, just with reversed roles.

there's loads of it and most of it are mechanics rather than the roles of units. but i agree that medium tanks are underpowered, not because they are bad, its because everything else is too powerful.

the numbers that relic decided to use are honestly too lethal, 160dmg on any tank is way too much and it gets more ridiculous from there, with is2 getting 240dmg per shot and elefants getting idk, feels like 320dmg to me.

this leaves medium tanks with only 640hp to deal with this lethality. it only takes 4 shots to destroy a medium tank and everything with 160dmg has almost 100% penetration chance. this leaves very little room for error with medium tanks when it doesnt take long for any of the tank destroyers to destroy them.

for comparison, vcoh shermans did ~80ish damage per shot and had 636hp, same with panzer4 although they have slightly lesser hp(600), but more penetration to compensate.

even dedicated tank destroyers like the wolverine, panthers or fireflies had about 110-136ish damage, nothing like 160dmg, 240dmg, or 320dmg here. also anti tank guns had 150dmg.

so it took quite a while of sustained fire, even from tigers, pershing and end tier dedicated tank destroyers to actually destroy a tank, so medium tanks can actually buy enough time for supporting forces to deploy.

2ndly, rear armour hits can be deflected in coh2, no idea why, i think its stupid and has to go. everything should and must penetrate rear armour, regardless of t70 or a tiger tank. its a major tactical blunder/golden opportunity and should be punished/rewarded for letting/making it happen.

this is why i think tank combat is a bloody mess.

i was hoping that they would have had front side and rear armor. agree with above about the rear shots being deflected, however, since its front and rear/side armor, they dont have a real choice. ie t70 pens side armor of a tiger? its just something that relic really slacked off on, that would improve the tank vs tank aspect.

i like the idea of p3, i would say that p4 should be t4,stock with short barrel, then building upgrade(or individual p4's) long barrel. then panther a call in

for soviets it should have been t34/85 in t4 and su86 as call in.

however, it is my opinion that the soviets were designed horribly. i would say that penals and conscripts should switch names. then give the then named penals sticky(or whatever it is) and the then named conscripts a flamethrower. switch mortars with snipers in the buildings.

The multiplayer is set in summer 1944.

Look at the map names. Moscow outskirts, road to kharkov, minsk pocket etc... those were all 41-42 battles. and there are winter maps too.


Look I just never liked how the T34/KV1 is such a crap tank in this game. When the germans first encountered it they found nearly every weapon in there conventional arsenal was unable to penetrate it and had to rely on point blank range attacks or 88s to knock the tanks out.

Most of T34/KV1s early on were just abandoned because the personnel was so poorly trained they couldn't make basic repairs. Not to mention in combat they often couldn't hit anything with the main gun even though it was superior to most german tank armaments. And even some that could didn't have the parts due to really bad logistics problems with the 1941 tank brigade design. T34s were a premier tank in 1941/42, certainly by 43-45 they were outclassed. Just seems like it would be best for T3 to have a Panzer 3, while the T3 building has a panther or P4 and one or the other is only a call-in tank.

I get that Relic wanted to put the "best of german ww2 armor in the game". Just remember though, all those sweeping German victories from 1939-1942 the Panzer 3 was the core tank. By the time Panzer 4 became the workhorse Germany was losing all its battles. Food for thought.

I certainly think that OKW faction coming out in june should have P4 as the workhorse. Ostheer should've had the Panzer 3... you can disagree but why does every german faction designed by relic NEED to have the Panzer 4 as its primary medium tank?

Hopefully when they release Afrika Korp faction Panzer 3 will be the primary tank...

I think the way Tiger was in vcoh was perfect for a heavy tank. It was just as powerful as you wanted it to be yet the moment you got overconfident with it and just went straight in it more often than not died pretty fast.

I dont know why but vcoh Tiger feels way more powerful and "heavy" than coh2 tiger.

I hope they soon change the economy behind tanks.. it should be possible to win without ever going tanks... but now they are so cheap and you got nothing to spend the fuel on anyway so of you wanna win, MASS TANKS!

OP propably wants a mode to set the year of conflict like in the AI battles. I would like that too for casual play. Limiting the Units available and maybe even the maps. But "no" on competitive play because it would be horrible to balance all settings and machtups.

Actually, they could give a customizing option that will allow players to replace some units before a match as they did in vCOH.
Panzer 3 as an option is not that bad, the latest models with their special long barrel 50 mm main gun could take on T34s. I'm talking about "J" and "L" models. Such a tank could have a smaller damage value while same AP value as P4, lower Armor value but greater mobility and rate of fire.

I mean, why not.

Actually, they could give a customizing option that will allow players to replace some units before a match as they did in vCOH.
Panzer 3 as an option is not that bad, the latest models with their special long barrel 50 mm main gun could take on T34s. I'm talking about "J" and "L" models. Such a tank could have a smaller damage value while same AP value as P4, lower Armor value but greater mobility and rate of fire.

I mean, why not.

I would be more than happy to buy those units (with good balance, of course) instead of those silly commanders they're selling right now.

Panzer 3 will likely get added to the OKW faction.

The Panzer III L/42 was obsolete against the T-34/76 (even had problems penetrating the side armor at normal combat ranges).

The Panzer III L/60 could penetrate the side armor at close ranges (below 400 meters)

The T-34/76 could penetrate the Pz III front easily (1,000-1,400 meters plus, depending on model)

Essentially the relationship of the Panzer III vs T-34 in terms of gun/armor was similar to the relationship of the Tiger vs. T-34 except reversed.

Panzer III's could succeed against soviet tanks due to their combined arms support & coordination afforded to them by their panzer divisions so they needed supporting arms when fighting other tanks.

Vehcile gameplay simply lacks, compared to infantry combat. (no gameplay mechanics cover, retreat). Its more of a slugfest which only gets affected by RNG, the only thing thats tactical is rear and fornt armor. Which doestn even matter for most medium vehcile. It doesnt matter if your T34 is facing the PIV main gun with its frontal armor. Same with PIV vs a Zis-3 AT-gun.

I think the way Tiger was in vcoh was perfect for a heavy tank. It was just as powerful as you wanted it to be yet the moment you got overconfident with it and just went straight in it more often than not died pretty fast.

I dont know why but vcoh Tiger feels way more powerful and "heavy" than coh2 tiger.

Coh2 Tiger feels like the vCoh King Tiger. (slow speed but a ton of HP and good armor)

Overall I dunno how the King Tiger will playout diffrently then the current Tiger. Maybe the King Tiger will have a better weapon.

Agree with the OP regarding the impotence of medium tanks once heavies hit the field, especially in team games. I think the question of actually which medium tanks should have been made as prime units for factions is less critical.

considering how much range tanks in real life have , yes they should dominate the field.
But game designers always want to "keep everything balanced" which they dont if they nerf tanks so much.
They want 1 infantry unit to be exactly as strong as 1 tank, if used right . Everything needs to be exactly equal. So in their logic if the game had babies in it, these babies could destroy a tank, bc otherwise it's not "balance" in their tiny minds.

The biggest issue with tank gameplay is tanks phasing thru each other. If you're moving at the wrong time the tank you just flanked might go right through you

The biggest issue with tank gameplay is tanks phasing thru each other. If you're moving at the wrong time the tank you just flanked might go right through you

spam stop command, it works.

guys for once check the date