This thread should've been over after the second post. If there's one thing one is expected to learn after spending time with CoH2 is that you don't balance the game based on 3v3/4v4 spamfest. You don't even take 2v2s into account most of the time when making balance decisions.
It should have, right? I'll just end here to prevent making more mess. |
they do if im not wrong i posted a gif with the test somewhere in the thread comparing it to katy, katy hit the first barrage instantly and when the second barrage hit the pwefer load hit too
but yes please give pwefer only 2 rockets it's op right now, maybe change stuka to have 1 rocket too it's too accurate
I should have just set up my own independent topic. I did this test just for our own sake to understand these units better. Not to try to prove which unit needs a nerf or buff. Also, I do not agree to give any nerf to pazerwerfer or Stuka, nor neither for Katy. |
Thanks for sharing test. They are quite useful and constructive regardless if one agrees on not with the conclusions.
Thanks bro. |
There are a few issues with the targets for your tests as Volksgrenadiers aren't exactly the target axis artillery should be firing at, better might be a mix of some teamweapons and mostly baseline infantry force (maybe damaged or down a model) consisting of grenadiers and volksgrenadiers - this will lead to different kills per barrage but shouldn'T really matter as it is mostly about the percentage of units that can survive.
The Calliope could make a nice addition, although it is even more expensive then the stuka and doctrinal.
It might be useful to know the exact positioning of those units and i hope you did use similar firing ranges as yellow cover usually makes units clump more and terrain differences migth lead to different outcomes in the results.
It migth also be worth noting that the Katyusha (or most allied arty pieces for that case) will deny areas for a certain time, while the axis counterpieces only do alpha damage.
Another weak spot for the Pwerfer compared to the Katyusha is the shorter max range and later accessibility (the stuka has the earliest but that is somewhat balanced as the price is pretty high and it delays further tech quite a bit).
The testers (Noobs vs Pros) are troublesome, as the game should be balanced at a high level otherwise tourneys would get onesided and migth be won or lost by a cointoss, not skill.
"There are a few issues with the targets for your tests as Volksgrenadiers aren't exactly the target axis artillery should be firing at, better might be a mix of some teamweapons and mostly baseline infantry force (maybe damaged or down a model) consisting of grenadiers and volksgrenadiers - this will lead to different kills per barrage but shouldn'T really matter as it is mostly about the percentage of units that can survive."
You just answered yourself in your own description.
"The Calliope could make a nice addition, although it is even more expensive then the stuka and doctrinal."
Please, read every single word I wrote.
"It might be useful to know the exact positioning of those units and i hope you did use similar firing ranges as yellow cover usually makes units clump more and terrain differences migth lead to different outcomes in the results."
I should have mentioned it. All blobs I meant are a group of infantries that are very clumped up. In our test, we did not find anything that will be hugely affected by terrain differences.
"The testers (Noobs vs Pros) are troublesome, as the game should be balanced at a high level otherwise tourneys would get onesided and migth be won or lost by a cointoss, not skill."
We did this to prevent the learning curve effect. Not tried to prove anything.
Team weapons countering, dodging, areal deny, and real game analyzing are going to be included in later posts. Now I am just too lazy to post anymore, so yeah, these are here just to show you we did consider them. And I may will just stop here.
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Why not just copy and paste in this thread. Unless you have more than text?
There are graphs and tables. And I am not quite sure how to copy those here. |
I will read it, if course. But I won't promise I will reach the same conclusion unless everything leads me to it.
The high ballistic of pwerfer makes it take longer to hit closer distances
Sure, I won't expect everyone to acknowledge the same as we do. Tell me a way I am able to send the doc to you on friday. |
How did you set up your experiment? How close to real matches do you consider it was?
Do you realize that pwerfer and wstukas projectiles land almost vertically meanwhile the allied variants have some horizontal velocity in it?
I cant really agree with the argument you bring in unless you really show a correct procedure according the game mechanics.
I agree with serrith about the wiping potential of rocket arty.
I would love to provide you the exact procedures if you could promise me that you will absolutely read every single word of it.
I was going to post our experiment detail in January. Still, after I reviewed my previous posts posted on this website, I realized most people wouldn't give a garden about reading the whole article. Most of them read only the conclusion part and then started to make comments without even knowing what had happened. And this is the reason I chose only to post a conclusion here because people won't read anything else anyway.
So if you really want to read it, I will be happy to rewrite the whole thing and send it to you via a Word Doc next Friday.
And for directly rebranding to your questions, yes, I have considered all of the side effects you mentioned and even beyond them. Rocket trajectory does not affect the time for them to land, it is, however, affecting their chances to be blocked by buildings. And Katy (and Colliape) is the only one that will be heavily by this factor. |
In terms of wipe potential, I'd rank
1. Calliope (hard to dodge, large number of rockets, good saturation, consistent fire rate)
2. Katyusha/stuka(katyusha is harder to dodge at close range, but stuka is better vs stationary targets)
3. Panzerwerfer(long travel time makes it easy to dodge and small rocket count can result in poor saturation, tighter scatter at close range can be effective when opponents multitasking is taxed)
4. Land mattress (horrible scatter, short range, poor mobility)
Neither the werfer nor stuka feel overpowered to me.
I have said in my post, based on my tests( tests took us hours to complete), Panzerwerfer is having more wiping and damaging dealing potential than any other stock rocket unit. It is, however, worse than Calliope. A lot of players like to declare an inconsistency in Panzerwerfer's performance. We also noticed it. Yet, however, this inconsistency will start to shade off as the battlefield is becoming more and more chaotic, which means it is an excellent tool in 4v4 and 3v3.
Also, in our tests, Stuka shows the best consistency and the most balance damage output. Katy, on the other hand, is very, very, very RNG based. It is only consistently performed against OST (OKW excluded) team weapons and grenadier spam, and that's it.
And, probably a lot of people have not noticed, the reaction time for you to dodge Katy close range is exactly the same(1.3~1.5 sec) for you to dodge Panzerwerfer rockets if the initial rockets launching audio warning bugged out. And the required conditions for the bug to happen are either: 1. More than one Panzerwerfer fired at the same time. 2. Heavy crossfire taking place on the camera position And at least one more position on the other area of the map. Both conditions happen very often in 3v3 and 4v4 games.
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Lmao complaining about squad wipe potential of Werfer which is almost universally agreed to be the worst rocket arty. Stop dude just stop 
Not true, among all tests I have done and all gaming experiences I had, panzerwerfer has the highest wiping potential, especially in 4v4. And it is also the one that has the highest dmg dealing potential. It is, however, need more skills to use. If properly used, a single OST player can deal the most amount of damage in any team game even without building any AT vehicles. I have done it at least ten times, and it is not rear to see an OST player in team games who only dedicated to building panzerwerfer. Also, if you wonder, I rank top 100 for OST in 4v4, and a dedicated unit tester and analyzer. |
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