So you want to change the whole faction new desigh just because you personally don't like how things are going, am I right?
I would personally prefer Ostheer didn't have nondoc AT weapons if they skip T2. The previous dynamic worked fairly well and I don't think introducing this skip is to the benefit of the faction design.
PGrens in T0 are cool, but Panzerschrecks in T0 undermines the balance on which T2 was priced. Either that balance needs to be restored or T2 needs to be repriced to reflect it's new, reduced value.
Failing that, I'd like to see some action taken to better balance teching T2 against skipping T2. The current dynamic heavily rewards skipping T2. T2 becoming off-meta would be a great shame given how good a tier design it is. |
How do u suppose we buff T2 without triggering at least half the forum aka allied fanboys?
If you're talking outright buffing it, reduce the cost of the building. More nuanced changes include moving part of its cost to Battle Phase 2.
My personal choice would be to lock the Panzershrecks behind T2 again, because I prefer skipping T2 to be the doctrinal trick it used to be rather than built into the core faction design. T2 is one of the strongest parts of Ostheer's design and I don't like the way it's been turned into a pricey sidetech. |
My point is that you are not safely skipping T2. Pgrens cannot counter all stuff, which allies can bring in the field with the same timing as ostheer t2 alone.
Maybe it is a case in cancer formates like 3v3 and 4v4, but for G-ds sake, there is already a nerf of Tiger Ace arrival coming soon, as I understand. This is enough.
The Tiger Ace has nothing to do with this. I don't care about faction-to-faction balance here.
My concern is that T2's not worth it at the moment. Teching T2 and getting light vehicles should be stronger than building PGrens, but the resource cost of the T2 building is so high for what you get that it's just not worth it.
The t1 and t2 skip strategy involves some risks unlike stuff like 5minute bolster. If Ost is gonna get their buff immediately nerfed because certain players don't know what "adaptation" means, Brit bolster should be looked into being changed.
If the T2 skip is balanced, then buff T2. My argument is that now Panzershrecks don't need T2, building T2 does not provide a benefit proportional to its cost. |
Ok, even if their weapons aren't quite as bad as I thought, they still lose to all other squads they'll ever fight in most situations and can't snare and are pretty squishy.
One versus one, yes.
But you can build a ton of these things really fast. You'll be swimming in map control, and you can overwhelm enemy squads with sheer numbers. Two RETs beat a Volksgrenadier squad, three beat a Sturmpioneer. You've got so many squads that flanking MGs is a piece of cake, and you'll get your officer in short order to do the damage heavy lifting.
If your opponent concentrates their forces, the RETs spread out and cap everything else.
Then you hit CP3 and they all get M1919s. The sheer power spike can push your opponent off the map.
Assgrens counter it hard, but against OKW RET spam can be really strong.
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but it does open a weak point, u skip at guns and LV like the 222 and 251
You don't need a Pak any more than Soviet T1 needs a ZiS: you've got Panzergrenadiers.
That leaves the light vehicles, which are a pretty hard sell at their new effective price point. You can almost buy a 250 and a Pioneer to go in the back for the cost of a 251.
T2 just isn't worth 200 MP, 20 FU any more. Not unless they lock the Panzershrecks back behind it. |
T2 is extremely useful. Skipping it is definitely a real bad idea.
It used to be: without it you relied on Panzerfausts and Teller mines for AT.
Now you get the Shreck PGrens in T0, it's much harder to make the argument for T2.
As far as I can see you ignore, that light vehicles are bringing map control to a player or are preventing from losing it.
Point is, that 222 performs well, it is not underpowered. 251 is ok, it's veterancy with flamer is just broken. If you are not building them because you want jump straight into a medium or even tiger ace, it should be possible as ost until you can carry own disadvantages.
Before the Panzergrenadier changes, you (usually) had to build T2 anyway. Therefore, the cost of getting a 222 vs not getting a 222 was 200 MP, 30 FU.
However, now you can safely skip T2, the cost of getting a 222 vs not getting a 222 is 400 MP, 50 FU. If you're not going for a light vehicle, you don't really need to build T2 at all.
The 222 is excellent value for 200/30. Do you honestly think it's excellent value for 400/50? |
Would putting schreck upgrade for pgrens behind t2 not solve the issue? Allies would then have a good chance to punish players skipping t2 with light vehicles.
Pfussies also need tech to get the At upgrade.
That would restore the previous dynamic where skipping T2 entirely means giving up Ostheer's anti-tank tools.
It's a tried and tested dynamic that works well and around which the game has already been balanced. It's probably the best suggestion so far.
If this new T1 + T2 skipping becomes a too effective meta, and if it ultimately proves that other factions can't reliably cope with that, something will have to be done about it. It's on the radar.
There's still an internal balance concern: 200 MP 20 FU is a steep price to pay for T2 if you don't actually need it any more.
Your point here, I'm sorry, looks like "USF has an opportunity to skip M20 because Captains non-resercheable BAR which brings to a single squad enough firepower for killing sniper on retreat after flank". Yes, it is possible, but Ostheer can force USF into buying LVs and not just saving for Shermie and there is definitely no reason to do something in USF tech design just because of that argument.
That's not how it works at all.
Building a light vehicle usually gives you an immediate advantage at the cost of slowing your teching. That's why you build them.
Nobody built the M20 Utility Car when it cost 340 MP because it didn't give you an advantage: it wasn't any more effective than just spending those resources on more infantry so you slowed your tech for nothing.
I fear Ostheer T2 is in the same position: a 222 or 251 just isn't worth 400 MP 50 FU worth of stuff. |
+1
MAybe it would be an option to increase the cost of battlephase 1 and decrease the cost of t2 building.
That's my suggestion.
You can also shunt resources to BP2 if you want to strengthen T2 without weakening the T2 skip.
You could even do both.
For example:
BP1: 100 MP 40 FU to 150 MP 45 FU
T2: 200 MP 20 FU to 100 MP 10 FU
BP2: 200 MP 90 FU to 250 MP 100 FU |
At least one time it might have been my fault, my engies seemed to be outdpsing them at healthy distance when we were both in yellow cover by the right VP, and I figured I could rush them out of their cover at close range so I could cap. Instead I had to retreat
Squads have lower DPS on the move, often substantially.
In a fight between two evenly matched squads, the defender wins. |
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The mortar is a powerful tool against Ostheer but lends itself of a slower, more defensive playstyle. I've seen people wreck Ostheer with that thing and I've seen people waste it completely.
I don't know what you're talking about with the .50 cal, it's got excellent suppression.
The AT gun is 50 MP cheaper than other AT guns and has a much wider arc, making it strong against light vehicles. If you spend munitions on its AP rounds, it has more penetration than a 6-pounder or Pak.
The Sherman can fight on even terms with an Ostheer P4 and is one of the strongest anti-infantry units in the game. |
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