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Thread: Ostheer T2 Skip24 Jun 2019, 09:56 AM Jump back to quoted post24 Jun 2019, 08:51 AMYeltsinDeathBrigades Ostheer players opponent, not a balance team, should provocate him to not skip this tech, which still be relevant and important. But it is a question of balance. Internal balance. It's the value of T2 vs the value of skipping it. Formerly, that balance was way in favour of T2: skip T2 and you've got barely any AT. But now you get decent AT anyway, is T2 worth 200 MP 20 FU now? If you're not building multiple T2 units, it's 400 MP 50 FU to get an LV out or 520 MP 20 FU for an AT gun. Those just aren't good value compared to Panzergrenadiers. I've got no problem with this new tech structure, but T2 should have a comparable cost to T1 in its current state, at least in manpower. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Ostheer T2 Skip24 Jun 2019, 00:33 AM Jump back to quoted post23 Jun 2019, 23:07 PMJibberJabberJobber In any case, just relying on the Pgrens without any back-up is a recipe for disaster. Backtech to Kampenya for the PAK40 should be strongly considered after your first T3 vehicle or if things go sour. Backteching T2 later is still a T2 skip. A particular concern is the 251 and 222 struggling to be competitive. If T2 isn't mandatory, they're effectively 400 MP 50 FU to get. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Ostheer T2 Skip23 Jun 2019, 22:12 PM Jump back to quoted post23 Jun 2019, 21:27 PMYeltsinDeathBrigades 1) How AT squad is affecting bolster meta? Shrek-graded pgren squad have less chance to win against tommie squad in any realistic scenario. I'd assume it's because having PGrens in T0 enables skipping T2. That gives you extra 200 MP to play with now and your rushed T3 unit 20 FU earlier. With benefits like that, it's hard to argue in favour of building T2 unless you desperately need a unit from it. Regardless of whether or not the Ostwind rush needs tuning, some of T2's cost ought to go to BP1 or BP2. T2 just isn't very cost effective right now. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Ostheer T2 Skip23 Jun 2019, 21:00 PM Jump back to quoted post23 Jun 2019, 20:56 PMFarlion Then why are we having this discussion, if it’s not clear if it’s necessary? Because it's about the how. Tuning the unit performance affects them in every build. Tuning the teching distribution only reduces the reward for skipping T2, and there are lots of other ways you can subtley shuffle power around. If that's not an interesting discussion to you, then nobody is forcing you to read this thread. Jump back to quoted post23 Jun 2019, 20:56 PMSuperHansFan The problem is with that logic Soviets are not the only faction vs Ost to be balanced with Actually if anything T2 skip mostly effects UKF because one Shrek squad can hardcounter WASP or AEC. Also with current meta of bolster and Tommy upgrades Ostwind has a field day munching British infantry before Cromwell arrives. Ostwind needs a little nerf in the AT department as it's a bit too good vs Stuart or AEC. Puma hardcounters centaur in comparison due to extra range and self spotting with the less mobile cent I'd have thought UKF was the worst faction to skip T2 against. The 251 is your best way to level the anti-infantry playing field, and you're not going to counter a CP2 M5 with Panzershrecks. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Ostheer T2 Skip23 Jun 2019, 18:31 PM Jump back to quoted post23 Jun 2019, 16:54 PMFarlion Yeah. You're making an argument to nerf a particular Ostheer strategy that is incredibly easy to counter. Saying "if necessary" doesn't negate that. No, I'm suggesting a means to nerf it that I believe elegantly avoids the knock-on effects of nerfing the units directly. Whether or not adjustments are necessary is a question for the balance team. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Ostheer T2 Skip23 Jun 2019, 16:07 PM Jump back to quoted post23 Jun 2019, 15:59 PMFarlion Maybe, I dunno, counter the weakness of that strategy, instead of nerfing it? Did you read the thread? In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Ostheer T2 Skip23 Jun 2019, 15:41 PM Jump back to quoted post23 Jun 2019, 15:39 PMGrim Or the fact that a snail with a sore arse could get there twice as fast as the Centaur. I always wait for 110 more fuel and get a cromwell instead. Or just play USSR/USF and enjoy playing a non-gimped faction. Bearing in mind I don't play 1v1 so that may have an impact on my opinion. The Cromwell's AI is pathetic compared to the Centaur. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Ostheer T2 Skip23 Jun 2019, 15:05 PM Jump back to quoted post23 Jun 2019, 14:48 PMGrim We keep seeing references to the Centaur but surely I'm not the only one who thinks the Centaur is useless? It's an incredibly powerful anti-infantry tank. That thing annihilates Grenadier squads. You don't see it as much because the UKF meta is Section Spam, and (like the Ostwind) the Centaur needs some hefty AT support to work. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Ostheer T2 Skip23 Jun 2019, 14:12 PM Jump back to quoted post23 Jun 2019, 13:47 PMBalanced_Gamer I mean would not that cause a kind of nerf and disadvantageous shift in early-mid gameplay if it costs more manpower and fuel than it does now? No, it wouldn't, so long as you keep the totals the same. If you increase BP1 to 200 MP 50 FU and reduce T2 to 100 MP 10 FU, the cost of teching T2 remains the same. BP1 hits 10 FU slower, meaning Panzergrenadiers, 250 HTs and Grenadier upgrades come online 10 FU slower. Skipping T2 has a 100 MP 10 FU lower resource reword. You could also shift some of T2's costs to BP2 to reduce the T2 skipping reward without adjusting BP1. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: T2's Viability23 Jun 2019, 14:07 PM Jump back to quoted post23 Jun 2019, 14:01 PMaerafield It's still necessary sometimes. You cant counter an USF AA halftrack or a quad flak just with panzergrens. Sometimes you also need pak40 vs emplacements or 251 for flamer (urban maps, soviet fhq, forward reinforcement). And sometimes you even need the 222 for scout or for anti tank services if you are too low on munitions for schrecks. Do you think this creates a role for the Soviet M5 then? Against a build skipping T2, could it be more effective than the T-70? In: Ostheer Strategies