they are both set and forget to counter all enemy indirect from mortar to howitzer. that they did different things to get there is irrelevant, the end result was the same.
Not really.
The commander got the name "cancer" commander for a reason. Part of that reason was how op UKF counter barrage used to be. |
Another difference is that Lefh barrage does less damage to buildings (not emplacements) |
Arr okay thanks, I guess thats for the artillery officer. Well nice to know you can use lefhs anywhere on the map if you have him in range.
Edit: not like this would be ever possible in a real game but on lienne forest I placed a LEFH on the bottom corner of the map and was able to fire at the top corner of the map.
Glad that I could help. |
Fuck me if im reading this correctly LEFH barrage has 500 range, im certainly going to test this.
Edit: Okay after testing, counter barrage dosnt increase range. Their is however in the abilities folder the victorbarrage. This means nothing most of the time but I decided to look at it anyway, its spooked me when it mentioned the counter barrage from the LEFH and has a value of 500 range.
Myth of increase range for LEFH counter barrage debunked.
Victor is the called by in map units.
Sexton has the same ability with valentine. |
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people avoid grnes because they can. in live you can make up the difference with ostroppen and fill in the punch with fast pgrens. there is no need for grens. you dont need their snare and you dont need their DPS. the mg42 zones well enough to make up for ostroppen lack of teeth and there is no place for grens in this meta.
im not smoke and mirroring anything, grens cost 240 all game and that all you will ever pay for them. the 80mp doesnt apply directly to them, one does not include the cost of hammer or anvil when balancing comet or churchill because theres more to the upgrades than JUST that single unit, as with ost t1.
i must say its Ludacris that you are attaching the tier cost to grens as if its anything more than a token to get access to 3 units and deny the con upgrades as cost inflating despite them doing nothing but unlock things for cons and cons alone.
Not really. They avoided even WC2019 when it harder to avoid them.
If you want to add tech cost one can not ignore the simple fact first conscripts comes at 240 manpower with no delay and first grenadier comes 240+80/10 and later while also locking pioneer in building T1.
Fact remain Ostheer have a slow start, if soviet have slower mid that is simply fine else they would simply snowball ostheer. There was a time when all conscript builds where viable and it turned out to be really ugly. |
Indeed, but as you said it remains in position and doesn't increase damage. The problem is creeping AND increasing dmg, when you can also use commanders to increase it further ahead (either Heat or mark vehicle).
If the ability made the tank stay immobile i would had less problems with it having vet1 higher values or even increasing it further than what it is now.
Moving cloaked unit where a problem but the mode team went from one extreme to other.
Both cautious movement and RW cloaked have simply become bad to the point of being circumstantial.
Cautious movement makes a low mobility vehicle even less mobile while many time it bugs out and does not attack vehicles in range. Provide no first strike bonus until vet 5 (which incredibly difficult to reach) and even the bonuses are not that great make cautious movement a circumstantial ability.
RW cloak is very player unfriendly and most people do not both use. Again first strike bonus become available only at Vet3 with little reason to use it before that.
One should have a look at these abilities and either make decent or replace them with something more useful.
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the abilities are % based so the units underneath matter very much so, for the su76 it gets a shot of full 160 damage which can be nice in conjunction with other AT as it will make up for what would otherwise be overkill damage, but on the JP4 it puts its damage to an odd spot that is mostly just absorbed by not changing the TTK, things get even stranger for the su76 when it gets that +20 damage with vet putting it to the unheard of 140 damage, with the first strike bonus bringing it to 175 damage
SU-76 does not do extra damage as first strike bonus.
what's more, while its true the su76 and jp4 have 60 range and shoot at tanks, that about the extent of the comparison capacity. the su76 is multirole for one and drastically cheaper, the durability also dramatically confuses the comparison, we dont compare the puma and the panther despite them both having 50 range and a turret with low AOE on the cannon because unit class matters. durability is the difference between the t34/76 and the kv-1, let alone adding in damage differences and utility like in the su76/jp4 category. the su76 is a baby in terms of AT platforms
Puma and Panther do not have similar accuracy or penetration
another dramatic difference is what the TDs are shooting at, combined with the previous point, makes them very difficult to compare. if the su76 was cloned and put in both okws army and the soviet army, some how set up to hit the field at the EXACT same time, the okw su76 would be better, simply because of the targets it shoots at. comparing things like TDs in a vacuum is difficult enough to begin with, let alone ones that dont even have the standard damage for medium AT in common.
these are the reasons im in favor of a vet rework (bring things like the su76 odd numbers in line, and making the damage bonus of the jp4 mean something) and why i dont believe the 2 units should be directly compared
Well I did not compare them in my initial post. In the following post I simply pointed out that one can compare them since there are similarities. |
the issue isnt that it can counter enemy arty, its that it does it extremely well, with no effort. this was the same reason for the hate on UKF counter battery. at the VERY least if you had to designate a sector for the counter battery to target it would be more palpable (would still counter howitzers if you knew where they where) since other indirect could still be used. right now it doesnt matter if its a mortar, su76 barrage or howitzer, the Lefh will shoot at them all, and kill them if you dont (or cant) move with nothing more than a click.
Lefh counter barrage and UKF counter barrage had little in common.
Lefh required a vet 1 CP 8 howitzer with cost and pop and fired with CD. UKF counter barrage was a toggle (from CP 4?) with not cost with the only down side that one could not produce unit from a certain building.
Generally speaking Lefh counter barrage is strong but very much needed. It work as a soft counter to Priest, Sexton and calliope that have little counters other than diving.
If one removed counter barrage one will probably have to change artillery design or run the risk of turning large mod game in allied arty festival |
By themselves in a vacuum? Yes, maybe. What Grens are bad at at the beginning is stopping squads from just running up to them.
In their faction? No, that's why they get the MG42 as support.
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I am simply demonstrating the flaw in the "grenadier is cheapest mainline infatry" myth, if one accept that they are one also has to accept that they are also the least cost efficient.
I simply hope that will not have to read the same myth in every other post.
In WC 2019 and (probably in WC2020 also but the stat are not there to be sure) there was not a single game with 4 grenadier build order. Not even one with 3 grenadier start. All starts involved an some other unit.
Point remains that Ostheer have one of weakest start when the go grenadiers. |
it entirely depends on the metrics. t34 ram is the least cost efficient snare unless you have something to follow it up with in which place its batshit OP.
the satchel is the least cost effective grenade since enemies can just walk away, but as bunker buster its vastly superior to the bundled nade for the same price.
Correct and the point is that Grenadier arrive later than all other mainline infatry while tying down the pioneer. That is why Ostheer have one of slowest start in the game. That is why when people play ostheer they avoid vanilla grenadiers like the plague.
In sort "grenadier is cheapest mainline infatry" means nothing, it simply smoke mirror to create an illusion than ostheer have some sort of early game advantage which they simply do not.
In early game grenadier cost 80+240+240+240 to buy and in late game both conscripts and grenadier cost 240 to buy.
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