The German Infantry five-man change will make the commander mandatory in literally every matchup.
Literally EVERY SINGLE PROBLEM (except the 222 not being armored) the Wehrmacht has, including but not limited to...
- Being insta-wiped by grenades and mines due to model bunching (which still, to this day, isn't fixed, while Allied squads sprawl themselves across half the map with five or more models, becoming immune to grenades)
- Not being able to crew abandoned enemy setup weapons without losing the crewing squad after just a single model loss
- Inability to take enemy fire long enough to bring up AT guns/tanks or land artillery hits or perform a flank
- Losing literally all one-on-one fights against all Allied infantry
- Complete inability to survive long enough to chase away a sniper and still remain a threat on the field
...is solved by giving Ostheer five-man squads and allowing them to actually survive long enough during engagements to get things done.
Costs don't matter (although I'm sure they'll be absurdly high for something all factions should have for free simply because more models is always, under all circumstances, an advantage), build time doesn't matter, no restrictions matter.
Having five-man squads will make Ostheer squads actually perform the way Allied squads perform, and that'll be infinitely preferable, even if it means stacking AT guns instead of bringing out early armor, simply because Ostheer has more trouble early game than any other time of a match.
I see your point but I think you going to far with this.
You have to pay 60 ammo per squad and keep in mind you have to reinforce that extra model (+30mp) - that makes a big drain of MP. Problem would be if they could be equipt with lmg42 but they can't (though wonder what they could do if they pick weapon).
Commander itself doesn't have good call in artillery (fragmentation bombs are okish but they can be dodge), there is no call in tanks, no heavies. Generally commander is really interesting but doesn't seem overpower in any sense. |
Initial reaction to Patch.
WC 51
-Build time from 30 to 18
-MG cooldown duration from 1.25/2 to 1.25/1.5
-MG Rate of fire multiplier from 1/0.8333/0.6667 to 1/1/1
Mechanized Groups
-M21 Mortar Halftrack available from the Rifle Command; requires an officer to be deployed. Does not affect Infantry Company.
Problems:
too much utility in these units to become attractive, confusing refit refuel implementation with player unaware of what hi is getting with refuel refit.
Suggestions:
Increase synergy with refit refuel. WC-51 only unit available removed mark target and barrage. Reason:
the unit is so cheap that in late game can be "kamikzed" just for mark target and barrage.
Add an pop up option on unit so that the vehicle can be "refit and refuel" to the following vehicles m3/m20/AAHT/ambulance/m21 maybe greyhound for the difference in cost. (maybe all these vehicles become interchanging between them)
Reason:
increase flax ability of built solidifies commander as flexible light vehicle commander.
Remove Assault engineer as crew to M3, remove med kits
Reason:
exploit since Assault engineer have a cost of 280 making the vehicle/crew way to cheap
Med kit to powerful if vehicle given to soviets
Cavalry Riflemen (New Unit) - Replaces Raid in Mechanized Company.
-300mp; 5 man squad with M3 Greasguns and two M1 Thompsons that are slot items.
-Abilities: M23 Rifle Smoke Grenades, AT Satchels, Covering Fire
-Can use 'Covering Fire' ability; Greatly reduces the Cavalry Riflemen's accuracy by 90%, but targeted infantry unit receives a 75% accuracy penalty and are reduced to walking speed for 11 seconds or until the ability ends. 25 munitions.
-Requires 2 Command Points to call-in.
-7 population.
-Has 1 weapon slot.
-Takes up the previous position of Raid in Mechanized.
-Veterancy 1: Reduces recharge of all abilities by 25%.
-Veterancy 2: -20% weapon cooldown, -23% Received accuracy.
-Veterancy 3: +25% smoke range, -15% Received Accuracy, +30% weapon accuracy.
Problems:
(Potential does slow also effect retreat?)
Unit overlap with assault Engineering available from m3.
Suggestions:
Either a battle group coming with m3
or reduce CP 1 make Thompson an upgrade locked behind officer
Reason:
Having early access to call-in infantry allows USF to reduce the number of riflemen.
Add small amount of synergy between Calvary and light vehicles like +5 vision -1 target size.
the unit is so cheap that in late game can be "kamikzed" just for mark target and barrage - what's the diffrent between this or calling a recon and using call in off map barrage? I mean at least here you have to get WC51 close enough to call it. At least it can be usefull later game.
Assault engineers doesn't overlap so much with Cavalery riflemen - ok fine, they are both close combat but they have totally diffrent abilities, diffrent role on the battlefield. (i agree though that cav should have weapon upgrade included). |
Alright so after testing out the even more improved Mech Company -
As much as I love the mini Army this commander has become it probably is a bit too much.
What I suggest is:
Leave the WC-51 as a call in unit instead of it being in the HQ.
Combine Cav Rifles and the M3 to make a combat group again.
Keep the M21 Mortar Halftrack in the place of Redraw and Refit.
Keep Combined Arms.
The 76mm Sherman needs to be fixed or replaced by an E8, as much as I love it it's simply broken and very abusable right now, and as much as Vipper's idea of replacing it with the M10 makes sense Combined Arms's potential would be largely wasted on a combination of Cav Rifles in M3 HTs and M10s in my opinion.
As far as the UKF goes -
As someone else already said, it's probably a good idea to also give a mortar to Royal Artillery in the place of Early Warning, either a mobile mortar section or the M21 Mortar Halftrack from the USF. As I said it's a 30 munition max hax ability in a doctrine already filled with munition based abilities plus, at least one of your teammates will be able to provide Recon somehow in team games, in which this commander will probably be chosen more often than not anyhow.
Related to Tac Support, I would like to offer my services of photo editing and create or at least edit the Air Supply Operation's icon and replace the MG icon with a Mortar one, and replace the Forward Artillery post's icon to also include the Forward Assembly, somehow.
I just sadly need somebody to provide me with the icons since I have never actually extracted an SGA file so I have no idea how to do it, or at least have forgotten how to do it.
Edit: Suggestion for Armor Company - if the M10 and 105 Sherman are kept in the doctrine they can be combined, in the same manner as Mech Company's Reserve Armor, to free up a slot for something like the M8 Greyhound which can be tweaked a little to make it worthwhile which would also help out Recon Company a bit I guess. Call it nostalgia but I think this unit could see the light of day a bit more than currently.
Edit2: I also noticed that my Ambulance instantly vanished when it was locked down and I used Redraw and Refit (for the first time in my life) on it so it's probably worth a look lol.
1. Mech company - it's really MP intensive commander. You simply won't afford adding all of this units call in stuff - this gives a lot of tactical possibities how you gonna play with it. Some of them really hard to use (like mark target or a barrage from WC51 - it's like a reward for keeping in alive into late game)
2. Armor Company - if you wanna combine m10 and buldozer you should make it both buildable in t3. Greyhound is already in recon company and it's one of key reasons to pick that commander. Adding it to armor company would possibly kill already rarely see Recon C.
3. NKVD - abilities cannot cost 0 ammo in faction that already float ammo. Even symbolic price will be good.
4. IF you say Mech company has a lot of stuff inside look at british tactical support. Wow, so many ammo ablities. Croc imo is too much (you drop 2 x AT and mortar for 200mp and 150ammo and with Croc you make a uncrossable wall) - maybe consider adding a weaker call in stuff like m10 or sherman 75mm (popular around british forces).
5. Mortar in Royal artylery regiment - Early warning is a good usefull ability, i am 100% sure that mobile mortar team will be added in new december commanders.
6. ambulance bug is a thing 
BTW great idea with a mortar in tactical regiment A_Soldier  |
The current implementation of Refit and Refuel is a bit weird. One does not have information of what he is getting back for refitting a unit and the ability can be exploited.
I would suggest a redesign so instead of resources one could get a higher vehicle (maybe with a crew of half XP?). For instance WC-51 can be refitted for a M3, M3 can be refitted for M-21 MHT (or even M-20 to greyhound).
Now one can invest in little vehicles that progressively get better and have access to all vehicles without using any other slots.
It is wierd
imagine for a new player that implementation of "higher vehicule" could be confusing as well. Where would it be a description (i mean you would have to write down every possible scenerio)- plus what about a abandone tanks? Sounds good but it could end up really confusing for a players.
But it's common in this game that stats and values are hidden from a player...
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I've said love, not discount, I'd much rather see suppressive volley actually useful and that would be sufficient.
We're not talking about making them Obers vol.2.
And after all we end up with the same conclusion. Agree - volley fire needs some love |
And first year conscripts were great, but for 4 following years, up to latest changes were utter trash unable to be used at any role other then AT nade throwers and cappers.
What's your point?
If a unit is shit, it needs love, it couldn't matter less how it was X time ago, when now its utter trash.
Sweety, nothing change from that moment. Rears statistics haven't been touched - they even got smoke nade. If you make them cheap like water then you will end up with huge "a" moved blob. I don't wanna see that anymore.
You are a smart boy, you can read and you noticed i haven't said they shouldn't be changed at all. Just don't mess up with cheaper cost and reinforcing price - that's all |
From a design point of view one has to either bring all commander abilities to the same powerlevel (pretty hard to achieve) or allow abilities with different power level but make be more careful when combining them so that total power level of the abilities thru out the commander remain about the same. So imo "weaker" abilities should exist to compliment commanders with "stronger" abilities.
For instance instead of nerfing stuka dive bomb one should simply remove the Elephant stuka/combo.
On the other hand extra weak abilities like tank traps should be merged for both faction.
I'm totally on your side with this one.
I wish that Relic or balance team relize that revamp of unused commanders isn't enough. You revamp two commanders but another 5 will still be unseen just becouse there is 2-3 meta commanders that are simply way better than any other.
Why would you pick a tank hunters commander if you can have a commander with KV-1 tank, strafe, guards, cons ppsh upgrade AND ml20 or another example: ISU, guards, mark target and bombing strafe. Nerfing most common, powerfull commnaders would unlock the one rarely seen. |
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And another coh2 balance discussion makes a life circle. Few years ago there was huge butthurt about RE being too cheap and to easy to afford - covered with Captain were perfect to blob with 2x zook or 2x bar. Reminds me old CaptainPrice blobs on 2v2s. That cancer was epic.
But people forgot about that great time and again they wanna reduce the reinforcing price...
Until that unit can be equipted with 2 weapon upgrades they can't be any price reduction. If you wanna do something give them upgrades or diffrent abilities etc. |
For me personally is obvious that they will add a doctrinal mortar, the problem is that people will only start choosing it because of that, same as the Special Weapons Reg being mostly chosen because of the Tank Hunter IS, Mobile Assault because of the Land Matress and Royal Arty because of the concentration barrage ability.
It's just sad and bad design in my opinion to take away a basic tool and then include it in a commander because people will be artificially limited and forced to pick the commander that contains what they lack in order to not be left behind and actually have a winning chance.
That's also why Luftwaffe and Fortifications were so popular for the OKW in the early days, because of the MG34, being as shitty as it was. And Elite Armor was chosen solely because of the Panzer IVs.
As for your point about the German Infantry doctrine, that's why I suggested that the officer be replaced by a Tiger in order to support your infantry in the late game, similar to Elite Troops.
+1 but Better have doctrinal mortar than none.
About the German infantry - don't see Tiger in that specific commander. Tigers were in german tank divisions and this doctrine should show the simple german infantry divisions, without any mechanic support, basic mainline infantry (5 men squads fits perfectly). I would see more indirect support like the ISG but the more powerful kinda like the old one before few patches ago OR panzerbushe AT package to fight light vehicule rushes (although it could be too much ammo intensive then).
Tiger is already common in many good commanders so don't see need to put him here.
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If you check out my signature you will find something similar to your idea, one of the lead people in the community mod team even helped make it.
But sadly Andy already answered my question on why not deal with the problem so I guess our hands are tied.
I really like your idea of a supply drop in British Tactical support doctrine (hope i didn't messed up with names) to drop also mobile motar weapon.
Changing the subject
Played some german infatry commander. IMO Stormtroopers and Field Officer shouldn't be together in 1 commander. Too many call in infantry in same moment (comes with 2CPs). |
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