I'm interested... What about Volks is so op? Their vet, which is worse than Vet 3 of most other units? Their AI, which is worse than that of most other units? Maybe their Durability, which is, again, worse than that of most other units?
The only thing I can see is an overabundant Panzershreck.
Saying 'Oh it's 90 munitions' is kinda irrelevant, because OKW gets to spend those 90 munitions on a really good AT weapon, whereas other factions do not get this chance.
I'd rather have a Riflemen with 2 zooks for 10 munis more than a 1 shreck Volk. If there is any infantry OP at the moment, it is undoubtedly Riflemen.
Joseph |
OKW Shrek blobs massacre armor and inf once they reach vet 4-5, heck they're probably the most potent unit for OKW atm with vet working again, long as you keep them alive. Just ask Senior Cruzz and he'll confirm.
I disagree. The most potent unit for the cost is the KT without a doubt, you don't even need your trucks still alive to bring it in and it has zero build time.
I have better luck with Puppchen against armor then Volks, which simply get run over by fast moving brit tanks and often do not fire at all even with plenty of time to aim. No more than 2 or 3 Volks is needed.
The real problem with Volks though is not their anti armor ability, its that they suck against infantry and their vulnerability to explosive damage. I find going heavy Sturm and Kubel a better choice than Volks early on. If they show up with a big blob and all you have are Volks you are not going to win the engagement.
When armor arrives you should already have a Puppchen in position and with 2 Volks that is all you need until Puma/JP.
If you mass Volks you will waste a ton of manpower reinforcing them that is better spent on other units.
Joseph |
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Volks are the worst OKW unit period, and making more than 2 or 3 is an epic waste of manpower, as you will be reinforcing them endlessly all game after every engagement. Better to spend the manpower on LeIG, Puppchen, IR HT, literally anything else.
So why do people blob them? Because newbs don't know what they are doing with OKW, and the people who can't beat a Volks blob know even less.
When you just start out playing a faction, you don't know your left hand from your right. As you play, you realize you do pretty well as long as you stick to units that are versatile. After all, no matter what situation you are in they will do OK. Units like this for OKW are Volks, P4, Panther and the like.
As you begin to learn something about the faction over time you begin to realize you cannot win against players better than you with the versatile units. You need an edge, something a little stronger. So you start experimenting with specialist units that are very strong but not versatile. These units will give you the edge you need, but you need experience playing the faction before you will understand when and how to use them. Examples of these units are Obers, JP, Puma, Puppchen, Flak Demag.
So in the beginning newbs will mass versatile units of only a few types, and rely on numbers to win the day. Once an expert they will prefer having a few units of all types and use them in a coordinated way for the things they are specialized for.
If you can't beat massed Volks, which competes for the worst mainline infantry in the game, you got problems.
Joseph |
Hmmm, You seem to be missing his point entirely. Mr. Smith produces, I would argue, the most well constructed arguments on this forum and you have summed it up as L2P.
I guess you might be right, if you believe theorycrafting about how a Command Panther MIGHT be used is akin to a well constructed argument, but it isn't and you're not.
The ideas Mr. Smith puts forth on how one could build 2 of this, or 2 of that, its all just poppycock. Malarkey you could say, because that is not how games pan out. His arguments are pure fantasy, but I'm arguing from the position of someone who actually PLAYS with the units he is talking about, and I'm telling you that he is flat out wrong.
Its a L2P issue.
Joseph
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Sure, if you try field a Command Panther & a KT, you probably will never get enough fuel for any other vehicle. However, ALL vehicles benefit from the CP aura, including the Mechanized-truck vehicles.
(instead of a KT) A more efficient way to use the aura is to field:
- 2 P4s
- or completely skip T4 and spend the fuel on Luchs/Pumas if needed
That way, you do get a small army of vehicles which:
- Is self-spotting
- At Vet3 becomes at least 25% more effective
- At Vet4 becomes absolutely devastating, and can kite their counterparts
Don't forget that Coordinated Fire will turn any vehicle into a monster when you want to swarm enemy heavy tanks.
Your intuition is correct. This is why I am asking to, at least, cap the CP Veterancy to a reasonable level (somewhere just below Vet3):
- Since it's incredibly rare for the CP to even reach Vet2/3 on 1v1s it will not affect balance for that gamemode, anyway
- Capping the veterancy of the unit will make it be a bit less unbalanced for bigger games. Neither OKW nor the Spec Ops doctrine struggle at all in the extreme-late game. Thus I don't see any reason at all not to go ahead with that change.
Some of what you said just does not make any sense. I'm beginning to think you don't play with the Command Panther much, because your suggestions on how to use it just don't pan out in practice and you would know that if you did.
What you are experiencing is a L2P issue for sure.
Joseph |
yo guys
Question:
what to do against brit blob with 5man squads and 2xbrens?
they melt everything in seconds
mgs from the front and obers dont counter them!
light vehicles dont work because Aec and tanks is hard because at/firefly, if you tech
stuka a fast crom will punish you hard
speaking from a 2v2 standpoint
OKW:
Leave the volks blob at home, they suck, I only build 1 or 2 all game.
Go for Sturms and a faptrack asap and use them aggressively, then a Puma (not Lynx) for fighting the eventual car/light tank. If Brits switch to emplacements you can then easily bring in Infantry Guns and a Stuka.
In general, I find skipping Tier 2 for Tier 3 and Obers to be a losing proposition. Get a faptrack and Puma out asap and learn how to use them, they can be amazing.
OST:
normal start into multiple Ostwinds, use PGrens with shrecks against tanks. Occasionally I build a couple Stug for assaulting emplacements.
Joseph |
Maybe I don't understand something, but why top-engineer unit (fastest reapair speed + repair upgrade) is also such a good close and middle combat unit, which is able in T0 and works, as first unit of OKW? Isn't that too much for just one "engineer" unit?
I know, that it cost a lot (300 MP), but it is also questionable point - soviet sturms costs 390 MP (and 2 CP doctrine), and they are only better, than sturmpios in close, and lose in mid-combat, but they can't build, repair put medboxes and do a lot of other stuff. Why sturmpios are so universal!?
Engineers of all other factions are 10 times worse, they usualy can't into effective combat, like soviet or ostheer engineers, rear echelons are totally broken and only able to carry zooks and lose them, nobody cares, that "Volley fire" doesn't work right. Only UK's engieers can be same good, as OKW's, but even they need for that UK's T3, side upgrade and 70 muni on repair pack + 1 MG + armor. OKW engineers are dangerous from the very start, and that's not normal.
I suggest to save their cool repair abilities, but cut their firepower by giving them another guns from start. Maybe MP-41 (should be little better, than loosy MP-40), maybe MKb 42. with way lesser accuracy on them... I think it's possible to find some options here.
And also I suggest to give to Sturmpios upgrade, which will be able after T1. With that upgrade they will get back their STGs, but will lose all abilities to repair and build and will turn into normal close-mid combat unit. And maybe - give them HP boost with upgrade, for to make them more effective in that.
So, OKW will be free to choose between engineer unit and close combat unit. It's really more, than all other factions have.
P.S. Why not to give to ALL engineers of all factions upgrade, which will boost their repair abilities? Because Ostheer, Soviet and US engieers are veeeeery slow in repairing. In late that slowness make hurt you hard.
Sturms have to be very VERY close in order to dominate with their STGs, much closer than other units equipped with STGs. If you think they are so powerful, you are probably not keeping your distance which is pretty easy as they have to basically stand on top of your units to have the advantage.
I would support allowing the minesweeper upgrades for the other factions to increase repair rates as does for OKW. Perhaps for a slight muni increase in cost. Also all factions should be able to put away the minesweeper for additional firepower as OKW can.
Joseph |
TL;DR: The Command Panther should probably not gain any veterancy at all; adjust price & performance accordingly:
1. Why does the potency of the aura need to increase with veterancy? The potency of an aura de-facto increases over time already, as your army grows, anyway.
2. Why does the survivability of an already resilient aura unit also need to increase over time?
3. If an aura unit performs exactly the same as a combat unit and costs almost the same, where is the cost-benefit decision I need to make when I field my first Panther?
4. Aura stacking (i.e., auras affecting allied units) should not exist, but that's a separate issue.
The OKW Command Panther ability is a bundle of three abilities:
- A conditional Mark Target ability (requires the Command Panther to be alive to activate)
- An combat panther that can self-spot (comes early and also requires no teching)
- A very powerful aura, that also scales with Veterancy
(All of this for 560 Manpower, 225 Fuel & 35 Munitions per ability pop)
Yes, the Mark Target ability is cheaper/way better than the Soviet equivalent, but that's fine. This cost-performance mismatch is not what makes the Command Panther truly broken.
It's the fact that if the Command Panther ever reaches Vet2 then it's gg, regardles of the gamemode. This is because:
- The command panther receives a significant boost to its survivability at Vet2
- The effects of the aura already start to become extremely powerful at Vet2
- This will inevitable snowball into the Command Panther achieving Vet3/Vet4/Vet5, where each of the aura effects is extremely OP in-and-of themselves (and they stack!)
Have a look at the unit veterancy & aura for the Command Panther here: https://www.coh2.org/guides/29892/the-company-of-heroes-2-veterancy-guide
The million-dollar question I have for everyone is:
"Why do the effects of the aura of the Command Panther have to increase with veterancy?"
- The effects of the aura already scale over time (more units fielded = more units that benefit from the aura)
- OKW extreme late-game would already be very powerful, even with a Vet0 Command Panther
- Is there a point in having such a deathswitch ("if you survive until minute 40:00 you win") so hardcoded into the game? Does it add any sort of strategic dimension?
Since the aura only effects vehicles until vet 5, I do not find it that powerful. I generally can only field 1 or 2 other vehicles besides the Command Panther at most, hopefully a KT among them.
The Command Panther is also very expensive, if I've been able to save up 225 fuel I almost always push to 310 for the KT, which is much more durable and effective for the cost. The Command Panther ultimately is only an expensive, harder-to-vet Panther if you don't have other vehicles around for it to boost. I'll bring the Command Panther in second to back the KT up and help it maneuver.
However you seem to find the Command Panther really powerful, and reaching high vet levels in many games. I suspect then you are mostly playing big multiplayer games where there are a lot of vehicles.
The most useful attribute of the Command Panther has never been its aura IMHO, but its visual range. Which I find indispensable.
Joseph |
(according to stat.cho2.hu)
Suppression per Second (far/near)
MG34 - 0.06 / 0.10
MG42 - 0.07 / 0.11
Maxim - 0.08 / 0.07 (better for far, interesting)
DShK - 0.11 / 0.18
.50 cal - 0.09 / 0.17
Vickers - 0.06 / 0.09
DPS (calculated for a certain target, general infantry)
MG34 - 1.36 / 10.99
MG42 - 7.85 / 25.85
Maxim - 7.05 / 13.42
DShK - 9.28 / 30.15
.50 cal - 9.09 / 27.30
Vickers - 7.33 / 34.86
So yeah, Vickers has the best DPS (for closer ranges), but the worst suppression (for far ranges)
The only thing I see here is how ridiculously bad the doctrinal MG34 is, and realize why I learned to never build them.
Vickers is the best HMG in the game but you can't leave it alone to guard an area, it must be supported by other infantry to spot for it and/or punish those trying to rush it.
Joseph |
Flak halftrack is ridiculously good if you use it properly. Practice with it a bit, it's all about where you position it and knowing when it is time to run.
Obersoldaten are great in a defensive position with their long range, high damage output and decent durability.
Doctrinally, you have plenty of tools you can mix in with your core army. Flak emplacements are cheap as fuck and reasonably effective at punishing blobs, goliaths are amazing, you can build MG34's, machine gun bunkers and S-mines with some doctrines, flammhetzer excels against infantry blobs as does the sturmtiger and when all else fails you can simply build a better blob.
What you wrote is as much fantasy as your profile picture.
Joseph |
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