OKW Command Panther veterancy is a bit broken

Sure, if you try field a Command Panther & a KT, you probably will never get enough fuel for any other vehicle. However, ALL vehicles benefit from the CP aura, including the Mechanized-truck vehicles.

(instead of a KT) A more efficient way to use the aura is to field:
- 2 P4s
- or completely skip T4 and spend the fuel on Luchs/Pumas if needed

That way, you do get a small army of vehicles which:
- Is self-spotting
- At Vet3 becomes at least 25% more effective
- At Vet4 becomes absolutely devastating, and can kite their counterparts

Don't forget that Coordinated Fire will turn any vehicle into a monster when you want to swarm enemy heavy tanks.



Your intuition is correct. This is why I am asking to, at least, cap the CP Veterancy to a reasonable level (somewhere just below Vet3):
- Since it's incredibly rare for the CP to even reach Vet2/3 on 1v1s it will not affect balance for that gamemode, anyway
- Capping the veterancy of the unit will make it be a bit less unbalanced for bigger games. Neither OKW nor the Spec Ops doctrine struggle at all in the extreme-late game. Thus I don't see any reason at all not to go ahead with that change.

Some of what you said just does not make any sense. I'm beginning to think you don't play with the Command Panther much, because your suggestions on how to use it just don't pan out in practice and you would know that if you did.

What you are experiencing is a L2P issue for sure.

Joseph

so.. vet shouldn't be rewarded? spec ops is a super underused doctrine (in my experience anyways) why nerf it "just cause"?
its a powerful unit for sure but i mean...isnt that the point?
ive only seen it a few times and if it was truly OP it would be all you saw (buffed isu) cause... like no tech panther? hell yes

ALSO i tested it and you cant brit command vehicle the Com.P sadly.... dreams broken

They took that ability out on the Command Panzer IV and then reintroduced it because noone built it any longer.

Further having a Command Panther and another vehicle is usually only common in the longest games. Nullifying the aspect of supporting your teammates would not only take out an aspect of teamplay but also render the Command Panther rather useless.

Nope, people didn't use the command PIV cause it needed to be used on owned territory and the usage was really awkward.

Some of what you said just does not make any sense. I'm beginning to think you don't play with the Command Panther much, because your suggestions on how to use it just don't pan out in practice and you would know that if you did.

What you are experiencing is a L2P issue for sure.

Joseph

Hmmm, You seem to be missing his point entirely. Mr. Smith produces, I would argue, the most well constructed arguments on this forum and you have summed it up as L2P.

so.. vet shouldn't be rewarded? spec ops is a super underused doctrine (in my experience anyways) why nerf it "just cause"?
its a powerful unit for sure but i mean...isnt that the point?
ive only seen it a few times and if it was truly OP it would be all you saw (buffed isu) cause... like no tech panther? hell yes

ALSO i tested it and you cant brit command vehicle the Com.P sadly.... dreams broken

This is a classic hyperbolic response. He is not suggesting a removal of skill based rewards, only that a kill switch is not appropriate for any faction.

Just because something is over performing does not guarantee it will be in every game. There are many reasons why an OKW player would forgo the CP. The reasoning for a potential nerf were well explained in the OP.

my point is that if it was OP it would be far more prevalent than it is
any time something is OP it becomes meta, isu, AEC, tiger ace, industry (at launch, not the garbage it is now) t34 ram, maxim spam, clown car sniper ect.
everyone wants an easy win to climb the ladder unfortunatly
its only as powerful as its support, its not a one man army. it could maybe do with a price increase or losing the extra armour/health at vet 2 but its aura is fine

it doesn't make the enemy unit harder to kill (aside from the vision buff), if they go heavy light vehicles they still die like flies, if they go mediums you can out number them (tech costs + each medium + command panther) if they want to support it with a KT well... you had already lost by that point...

in a 1v1 or 2v2 it will be hard pressed getting vet 2 and in team games its a gong show ANYWAYS but the reward for keeping it alive is just extra OKW (hard to get but worth getting)

in a 1v1 or 2v2 it will be hard pressed getting vet 2 and in team games its a gong show ANYWAYS but the reward for keeping it alive is just extra OKW (hard to get but worth getting)

I don't know what a gong show is, but if this is about how larger team games require no skill, blah, blah, blah it is factually incorrect. In any case, ignoring 50% of the community because you don't play those game modes is crazy. I don't say ignore 1v1 because I find it boring.

Command panther is fine, I only seen a vet 5 like once in my life. The requirements for it are atrocious. Therefore what the rewards are are just fine. If you allow it to become past vet 3 then it's kinda your own fault. Oh and let's not forget usually the VPs end the game befor then

I don't know what a gong show is, but if this is about how larger team games require no skill, blah, blah, blah it is factually incorrect. In any case, ignoring 50% of the community because you don't play those game modes is crazy. I don't say ignore 1v1 because I find it boring.

A gong show is like a cluster f*ck, there is alot going on in other words. And I dont by anymeans hate on large modes, I actually play them the most (only really play with friends now). My point was bigger modes need more than simply generic changes, it neess a balance all of its own (not saying it doesnt matter, just that it needs special attention) such a drastic change on an under used unit because it might happen in 4s could (and I think would) ruin it for 1s and 2s

Just my opinion anyways

Hmmm, You seem to be missing his point entirely. Mr. Smith produces, I would argue, the most well constructed arguments on this forum and you have summed it up as L2P.

I guess you might be right, if you believe theorycrafting about how a Command Panther MIGHT be used is akin to a well constructed argument, but it isn't and you're not.

The ideas Mr. Smith puts forth on how one could build 2 of this, or 2 of that, its all just poppycock. Malarkey you could say, because that is not how games pan out. His arguments are pure fantasy, but I'm arguing from the position of someone who actually PLAYS with the units he is talking about, and I'm telling you that he is flat out wrong.

Its a L2P issue.

Joseph

If this issue does not exists becasue we don't see vet 4/5 CPV I have proposition.

Let's give T34 and KV1 +100% health, +100% armor and + 50% penetration with vet 3 becasue you know, we don't see vet 3 T34/76 nor KV1.

Command panther is fine, I only seen a vet 5 like once in my life. The requirements for it are atrocious. Therefore what the rewards are are just fine. If you allow it to become past vet 3 then it's kinda your own fault. Oh and let's not forget usually the VPs end the game befor then

This question has come up at least 4 times already in this thread. Thus, I've updated the OP with a FAQ. You can seek your answer there, and then we can discuss it here.

Otherwise, I offer to modify Australian magic's proposition as follows:

- Give all sniper squads 10 levels of Veterancy
- At Vet10, the snipers gain the "Improved Incediary Shot" ability which instawipes a squad
- The snipers gain nothing else between Vet4 and Vet9

Now ask yourself the following:
- Does having doomsday abilities improve the game somehow?
- Does any other faction have any ability/unit that breaks the game to that extend?
- Wouldn't you say this is unfair to other factions, considering that Relic is shifting towards "making all factions equally competitive at all stages in the game"?

@Australian magic
None of these bonuses would make T34/KV1s nearly as broken as the current Vet5 CP. This is because once the CP has reached Vet5, you can pull it back and let the other units do the dirty work with the aura it provides. If you want to use the broken T34's etc, you still have to put them in the frontline. You have to go with an aura.

This question has come up at least 4 times already in this thread. Thus, I've updated the OP with a FAQ. You can seek your answer there, and then we can discuss it here.

Otherwise, I offer to modify Australian magic's proposition as follows:

- Give all sniper squads 10 levels of Veterancy
- At Vet10, the snipers gain the "Improved Incediary Shot" ability which instawipes a squad
- The snipers gain nothing else between Vet4 and Vet9

Now ask yourself the following:
- Does having doomsday abilities improve the game somehow?
- Does any other faction have any ability/unit that breaks the game to that extend?
- Wouldn't you say this is unfair to other factions, considering that Relic is shifting towards "making all factions equally competitive at all stages in the game"?

@Australian magic
None of these bonuses would make T34/KV1s nearly as broken as the current Vet5 CP. This is because once the CP has reached Vet5, you can pull it back and let the other units do the dirty work with the aura it provides. If you want to use the broken T34's etc, you still have to put them in the frontline. You have to go with an aura.

Have you even seen a vet 5 command panther? If you have it must have been GG shortly after.

I think the vet bonuses it gets are fine. Considering how long it takes to get there.

Now if it didn't have such high requirements maybe I would have a different opinion

Legit, I only seen one maybe MAYBE 2 vet 5 in my life. Streams and all. It's a well deserved bonusbonus if that level is reached. And if he has an army to support with it, then it's GG in the first place

Since this is like a 1 of 1 thread on it as well, clearly people do not have a problem with it...

Sorry man. I don't think it will be changed..

VPs end the game before a vet 5 panther even has a chance to become vet 5. And if it does, I don't think the vet buffs made it GG for you. The amount of tanks and damage alone would result in a lot of kills from it. It's GG eother way.

VPs end the game before a vet 5 panther even has a chance to become vet 5. And if it does, I don't think the vet buffs made it GG for you. The amount of tanks and damage alone would result in a lot of kills from it. It's GG eother way.

I think you are making an incorrect assumption here which, sadly, misleads you to the wrong conclusion. The incorrect assumption is that:

"Tons of damage does not equate to tons of number of kills"

The game could be a standoff at this stage, and the enemy could have already reached their max level vet. Thus, they have no way of keeping up with the CP anymore.

Have you even seen a vet 5 command panther? If you have it must have been GG shortly after.

This thread is, now, 5 pages long, and I've responded to this question an equal amount of times already. It is not sustainable:
- For me to keep providing the same answer to everyone
- To expect that people that join up in the conversation have the time to read the entire thread.

Thus, I have created a FAQ in the OP. If you disagree with any of my arguments there, quote them in a reply and we can discuss them.

I have nothing against you, personally.

I think you are making an incorrect assumption here which, sadly, misleads you to the wrong conclusion. The incorrect assumption is that:

"Tons of damage does not equate to tons of number of kills"

The game could be a standoff at this stage, and the enemy could have already reached their max level vet. Thus, they have no way of keeping up with the CP anymore.



This thread is, now, 5 pages long, and I've responded to this question an equal amount of times already. It is not sustainable:
- For me to keep providing the same answer to everyone
- To expect that people that join up in the conversation have the time to read the entire thread.

Thus, I have created a FAQ in the OP. If you disagree with any of my arguments there, quote them in a reply and we can discuss them.

I have nothing against you, personally.

I don't have an incorrect assumption, I know how damage vs kills works in the game

So if you want to further my argument then. Then fine, the amount of damage (not kills) is still atrocious. It's easily the most XP required unit in the game to reach vet 5.

With the enemy reaching it's "max level of vet" meanwhile "unable to keep up with the CP" where have you been since WFA release? Or since the OKW fuel revamp? It's that way for any and all OKW units vs allies.

The command panther is a 1 of 1 for each player.

The command panther is 225 fuel

Well supported/focus fired Su85s, fire Flys, Jackson's have no problem with it.

"I have nothing against you personally"

Lol wut? I never said you did. Don't make yourself a victim to a crime that never happened bro. I'm talking to you in a discussion man, I didn't say anything offensive to you or vise versa for you to say something like that.

If this issue does not exists becasue we don't see vet 4/5 CPV I have proposition.

Let's give T34 and KV1 +100% health, +100% armor and + 50% penetration with vet 3 becasue you know, we don't see vet 3 T34/76 nor KV1.

Well if you can build only 1 of each in a game then yes why not

And if they are priced according to the vet bonus

And locked behind a commander(t34)

But that's up to relic to decide if they want to release a new Soviet commander with something to those standards...

You should put that in the wishlist section..

So if you want to further my argument then. Then fine, the amount of damage (not kills) is still atrocious. It's easily the most XP required unit in the game to reach vet 5.

Technically that's not correct:

Q: But it takes aaaaages to vet the CP compared to a normal panther.
A: This is simply not true. The Veterancy requirements of the CP are only 15% more than a normal Panther. Moreover, the CP has the "Coordinated Fire" ability which (i) makes the target take 50% extra damage and (ii) costs only 35 munitions to activate. 50% extra damage is 50% extra veterancy. Your CP will catch up to your normal Panthers nicely.

However, it definitely feels that way because:
- A competent enemy will be focus-firing on the CP first to force it off the field (and thus deny it veterancy)
- You can only have one CP out in the field at a time.

To explain myself, let's take normal Panthers. It is a bit challenging to have one particular Panther reach a high level of vet. However, if you could field 3 Panthers at the same time, there's good chance that one of them would be able to reach a high-level of Veterancy before the game ends (even if you lose the other 2).

With the enemy reaching it's "max level of vet" meanwhile "unable to keep up with the CP" where have you been since WFA release? Or since the OKW fuel revamp? It's that way for any and all OKW units vs allies.

- My rose-tinted assumption here is that Relic intends to have all factions perform roughly the same at all stages of the game.
- Failing that, it would be a good idea to have all factions converge to the same extreme-late-game strength.
- The fallback to that is at least prevent certain factions from shifting their late-game gears and completely diverging from their competition.
- This is what the Vet5 system does to post-revamp OKW for certain units

Ideally, I would like to have the foresight and the mental capacity to stamp out all those issues that amount to a bigger problem. Sadly, I don't. However, even if I did, I know that this would raise reactions from parts of the community, the thread could easily devolve into a flamewar and this would get us nowhere. And we would still have a broken Command Panther.

Instead, I think it is a more pragmatic approach to point out the most unequivocally broken (due to Vet) unit in the game. Given that this thread has already been going in circles for the past few days, I think that limiting the focal point to one late-game unit (which will not affect early-game performance, or even 1v1 that much) was the right way to go.

Thus, let's try to fix the broken late-game mess of the OKW rework one piece at a time (and without affecting early game balance)

The command panther is a 1 of 1 for each player.

The command panther is 225 fuel

Well supported/focus fired Su85s, fire Flys, Jackson's have no problem with it.

Countering the Panther unit directly, absolutely. However, when the OKW/OST fleet breaches a certain threshold, and you have the effect of a very powerful aura buffing that fleet, it is no longer necessary to continue to expose the CP to danger.

"I have nothing against you personally"

Lol wut? I never said you did. Don't make yourself a victim to a crime that never happened bro. I'm talking to you in a discussion man, I didn't say anything offensive to you or vise versa for you to say something like that.

This is the Internet and misunderstandings often happen; especially when people debate a particular topic they find interesting. Given the nature of my response, I wanted to make sure that I didn't come off as too abrupt or anything

"lets say if you have 3 panthers"..."but with a KT".."if supported by luch and double p4"... you are cherry picking specific situations where in a realistic match things would be very different. Just because some buffs sounds dangerous or OP on paper does not mean in an actual match its op.

All im seeing is some ifs or buts and no actual game play evidence. The so called "proofs" you provided of the ESL games didn't show sh*t and i feel sorry for the guy who ended up wasting his time watching those.

Though i do agree with you in some areas such as, just because something is hard to VET does not mean it should be OP, at vet5 the last thing anyone one would want is aura buffed vet 5 shreks blobs running all over the place but i wouldn't be sure what to do with that because ive never seen vet 5 command panther in my life SO I TRY NOT TO COMMENT ON BALANCE ABOUT IT IF I HAVE LITTLE OR NO EXPERIENCE IN IT (Take note).

Smith just please go actually play the game and use the command panther a good number of times.

Well if you can build only 1 of each in a game then yes why not

And if they are priced according to the vet bonus

And locked behind a commander(t34)

But that's up to relic to decide if they want to release a new Soviet commander with something to those standards...

You should put that in the wishlist section..

OK then, let give KV2 (doctrinal, limited) vet 3 buff 50% to reload, 50% to range, 50% to health and 50% to armor. We don't see vet 3 KV2 so it won't be broken at all.

OK then, let give KV2 (doctrinal, limited) vet 3 buff 50% to reload, 50% to range, 50% to health and 50% to armor. We don't see vet 3 KV2 so it won't be broken at all.

Suggest itto relic, I'll vote for it