OKW Command Panther veterancy is a bit broken

Posts: 2636 | Subs: 17

TL;DR: The Command Panther should probably not gain any veterancy at all; adjust price & performance accordingly:

1. Why does the potency of the aura need to increase with veterancy? The potency of an aura de-facto increases over time already, as your army grows, anyway.
2. Why does the survivability of an already resilient aura unit also need to increase over time?
3. If an aura unit performs exactly the same as a combat unit and costs almost the same, where is the cost-benefit decision I need to make when I field my first Panther?
4. Aura stacking (i.e., auras affecting allied units) should not exist, but that's a separate issue.

FAQ

Q: I've never had/seen a Vet4/Vet5 Command Panther before in my life. What the hell is this post all about?
A:
- First of all, the bonuses become already too strong at Vet3.
- Secondly, it is rare, but it does happen.
- Finally, the frequency of how often something broken occurs is irrelevant. Wouldn't it be better design to cap the Veterancy of the CP at a reasonable level? (somewhere between Vet2 and Vet3). That way the CP would not break the few interesting games that it does.

For an actual high-tier match where the Vet-5 CP shows up, have a look at the following video (minute 30-ish on):

Q: But it takes aaaaages to vet the CP compared to a normal panther.
A: This is simply not true. The Veterancy requirements of the CP are only 15% more than a normal Panther. Moreover, the CP has the "Coordinated Fire" ability which (i) makes the target take 50% extra damage and (ii) costs only 35 munitions to activate. 50% extra damage is 50% extra veterancy. Your CP will catch up to your normal Panthers nicely.

Q: 4v4? Who cares?
A: I'm proposing a small change that will probably not really affect the smaller game modes as much (since achieving Vet2/3 is so difficult to begin with as you claim). This change will have a very big impact on a very popular gamemode that is played by the majority of the players. Is there a fundamental reason to reject the change?

Q: What are the veterancy bonuses of the Command Panther (CP)?

Aura
Vet0: +20 sight range, +10% speed, +10% ac/de-celeration
Vet2: +20% accuracy
Vet3: -20% reload
Vet4: +5 range
Vet5: Infantry affected too

(The Command Panther does not benefit from its own aura)

Unit
Vet1: Unlocks the 'Combat Blitz' ability (+40% speed, -50% received accuracy, +100% accuracy)
Vet2: +10% armour, +20% health, +10% weapon rotation speed
Vet3: -10% reload, +10% rotation speed, +10% ac/de-celeration

Q: What are the differences between a Command Panther and a normal Panther?
A: It depends on what your definition of a "normal Panther" is:

OST Panther
- Let's use this as the baseline (base stats + veterancy)
- Blitzkrieg: +15% speed, -25% received accuracy

OKW Vanilla Panther
- Improved MG DPS (I'm not a connoisseur. Probably around +30-50% MG DPS)
- Improved moving accuracy (+30% compared to OST Panther)
- Combat Blitz: +40% speed, -50% received accuracy, +100% accuracy
- Vet4 & Vet5

Command Panther
- Improved sight range (35 -> 55)
- Improved MG DPS (same as vanilla OKW Panther)
- Combat Blitz (same as OKW Panther)
- Offensive vet starts lagging behind at Vet2 & Vet3
- The Command Panthera also received the "Coordinated Fire" ability

Coordinated Fire (35 Munitions, 20 seconds duration)
- +50% damage on enemy target
- 1 minute cooldown

Compared to the OKW Panther, the CP loses the moving accuracy bonus, the Vet4/Vet5 bonuses and some offensive stats at Vet2 and Vet3.

Q: What are you on about? Command Panther bonuses look completely fine; Veterancy is fine.
A: Observe the bonuses at Vet4 and Vet5. At Vet4, vehicles will receive a +5 bonus to their range. At Vet5, even infantry will receive that bonus. This leads to the following amusing situations:
- Your infantry will start outranging enemy infantry
- All your units will be able to outsight any enemy unit, including dedicated scout units, e.g., Pathfinders (55 range vs 45 range)
- Volksgrenadiers will be able to outsight (55 vs 35) enemy tanks and fire Schrecks from the FoW (40 range with the buff). Tanks will no longer be able to kite Volksgrenadiers (40 vs 40).
- SU/USF/UKF dedicated TDs will lose the only benefit they have over Panthers, their range: (55 vs 60). Panthers will be able to outsight heavy TDs (55 vs 35) and kiting them will become impossible.

Now, let's assume the following (even though they might not be true):
- The Command Panther is completely fine at Vet0
- The Command Panther is completely broken at Vet5

This means that somewhere between Vet0 and Vet5 there is a veterancy transition that turns the CP from "a bit OP" to "rather broken". Again, why not cap CP veterancy at that point?

In my opinion:

The Command Panther does not have to reach Vet5 to be considered broken. It is already too strong at Vet3.

Q: Isn't Veterancy one of the defining mechanics in this game that rewards unit preservation? Why would you want to take this away? If somebody keeps their CP alive until Vet5, they should get some benefits. No?
A: We could redesign the Command Panther to still benefit from Veterancy. However, the power level of the CP should never reach or exceed the power level it achieves at Vet3. Therefore, we have the following options:
- Cap CP Veterancy at Vet2/Vet3
- Spread the Vet0-Vet2 bonuses between Vet0-Vet5
- Nerf the Aura/unit of the CP at Vet0 and make it regain those bonuses (up until the current Vet2) as it gains Veterancy

Now, which one would you choose?

Q: But isn't this a nerf to OKW?
A: This is a nerf to extreme-lategame of OKW, where other factions already have issues keeping up with it. This will not affect the early game of OKW, nor the mid-game nor the late-game in most modes.

Main Post

The OKW Command Panther ability is a bundle of three abilities:
- A conditional Mark Target ability (requires the Command Panther to be alive to activate)
- An combat panther that can self-spot (comes early and also requires no teching)
- A very powerful aura, that also scales with Veterancy

(All of this for 560 Manpower, 225 Fuel & 35 Munitions per ability pop)

Yes, the Mark Target ability is cheaper/way better than the Soviet equivalent, but that's fine. This cost-performance mismatch is not what makes the Command Panther truly broken.

It's the fact that if the Command Panther ever reaches Vet2 then it's gg, regardles of the gamemode. This is because:
- The command panther receives a significant boost to its survivability at Vet2
- The effects of the aura already start to become extremely powerful at Vet2
- This will inevitable snowball into the Command Panther achieving Vet3/Vet4/Vet5, where each of the aura effects is extremely OP in-and-of themselves (and they stack!)

Have a look at the unit veterancy & aura for the Command Panther here: https://www.coh2.org/guides/29892/the-company-of-heroes-2-veterancy-guide

The million-dollar question I have for everyone is:
"Why do the effects of the aura of the Command Panther have to increase with veterancy?"

- The effects of the aura already scale over time (more units fielded = more units that benefit from the aura)
- OKW extreme late-game would already be very powerful, even with a Vet0 Command Panther
- Is there a point in having such a deathswitch ("if you survive until minute 40:00 you win") so hardcoded into the game? Does it add any sort of strategic dimension?

You have a great idea that improves the QoL aspects of the game? Please, drop your idea here:
https://www.coh2.org/topic/57860/some-qol-suggestions

Check out Cruzz's DPS calculator:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7gwy65JLbSRMEJ3M2ZPandMMW8/view?usp=sharing
(Download the file, open it with your browser)

Multi Quote

Reply

Posts: 297

It hard as hell to get, and rewards like a SU-85 and riflemen. I feel like more units should vet like that, since even if arty officer does improve his bonuses with veterancy it suffers for vanilliosis, a common hillness that forces vanilla factions to have worse or lamer veterancy

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2

As for the Command Panther, I think 10CPs is too low. M4C is 10CPs lel.
12CPs seems fine for it.

Posts: 587

As an overly simply counter argument: as a 1vs1 and 2vs2 player, i may have seen a vet 3 command panther 2 times in my 3 years of coh2 (either playing or watching), nevermind a vet 5 command panther.

But seeing as "higher" gamemodes do exist, i would present some other arguments.

The commander it comes in is a bit of a mis-match, seeing as it has an upgrade for obers which need to be build in t4, but also a call-in which rather replaces a same unit out of t4. The point here being that taking full effect of this commander requires t4 which deminished the effect of going for the call-in command panther.

Moving on to the panther itself and your points.

To 1. Simply put, i see it as on of the main points of coh2: being rewarded for veterancy. The only unit that bypasses this is the sturm officer from the JT commander, a unit most people do not use (perhaps for this reason, or perhaps for other reasons). Personally, i never liked the unit for having no vet.

To 2. The command p4 survivablity also increases with veterancy (blitz and sideskirts) therefor i think that it's the general theme of such units. You get rewarded with more survivability for keeping these units alive.

To 3. I think i alreadt touched upon this in my opening, but i shall write it down once more: Taking full effect of this commander, deminished the return on investment for the call-in. Besides that, as noted, you pay more for the command panther, and it comes in a doctrine.

To 4. Agreed.

Overall assesment: i do not see the command panther as a balance issue right now, mainly for the reason as laid out in the opening, but also for reasons relating to the unit and commander itself.

I agree, the command panther has the potential for being gamebreaking, but that requires tremendous effort on the users part and a game which lasts a very long time with the panther fighting and surviving alot of armor battle's. The latter of this is not common in coh2 or rather not part of the average match.

So i would say there are far more pressing issue's to attend to.

Posts: 673

I think, that command Panther should be like command Cromwell in vCoH - with buffaura around, but without weapon and cheaper, than normal Panthers.

And It can gain veterancy, like USF officers do - from units gettin EXP around them.

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2

How about cheaper version with Pz4 turret? There was Panther like this and it would suit command theme like weaker version of Commnad PzIV.

Still useful, but not self-sufficient.

(of course it won't happen but just a theory...)

Still, 10CPs - too early for a Panther.

Posts: 393

Command panther is arguably OP but when did you ever seen a vet 5 command panther?

2

Posts: 1108

agree with Australien Magic. 10CP is too early for this tank. 12 CP would be much better.
btw. what happend to the command KT?

Playercard of MoerserKarL

1v1: P	2v2: P	3v3: P	4v4: P
1v1: P	2v2: P	3v3: P	4v4: 308
1v1: P	2v2: P	3v3: P	4v4: P
1v1: P	2v2: P	3v3: P	4v4: 442

Multi Quote

Reply

Posts: 297

23 Mar 2016, 10:28 AMObersoldat

Command panther is arguably OP but when did you ever seen a vet 5 command panther?

glorious days of troop training, and even then it was hard

4

Posts: 550 | Subs: 1

I do agree that the aura shouldn't become stronger with vet.

However, I have not yet seen a command panther past vet 2 (luckily) so I cannot really comment on how strong it is, but judging from the stats in the game it is indeed very strong.

The concentrated fire ability however seems too strong for the cost.

23 Mar 2016, 10:21 AMzarok47

The commander it comes in is a bit of a mis-match, seeing as it has an upgrade for obers which need to be build in t4, but also a call-in which rather replaces a same unit out of t4. The point here being that taking full effect of this commander requires t4 which deminished the effect of going for the call-in command panther.

I agree that the commander is a tad odd in that it encourages to forgo t4 because you can get a superior panther without the need for the tech structure. However, I would argue that the argument regarding the diminishing effect doesn't really hold since the difference in cost to a vanilla panther is 25 fuel and 70 manpower (completely neglecting the cost for t4), hardly anything that would make you think twice and it's hardly anything that would prevent you from getting t4 either before getting the command panther or after. The difference can be more of a hurdle in 1v1 but in anything else, the difference is not a big hurdle.

The only other issue I see is that the unit scouts for itself and doesn't require any unit for support. This is okay for scout units like a puma, stuart or t70 but for heavy units it defeats the point of advertising combined arms.

4) agreed

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

I don't see how any of that is an issue...

25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM$nuffy

Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.

Good Stuff here

Multi Quote

Reply

Posts: 2636 | Subs: 17

It is important to differentiate this. In my OP I asked two questions:
1. Why does the AURA of the Command Tank have to improve with Veterancy?
2. Why do the UNIT STATS (survivability) of a unit that provides a strong aura have to improve with Veterancy.

The most important question to ask ourselves is #1; this is what makes this unit fundamentally broken (i.e., a deathswitch). I don't think any of the responses has even touched this question.

23 Mar 2016, 10:28 AMObersoldat

Command panther is arguably OP but when did you ever seen a vet 5 command panther?

The aura that the Command Panther gets at Vet3 is already the strongest such aura in the game
- With the exception of UKF command vehicle, which is cumbersome to use due to the reduced speed

The reason why you never see a vet-5 Command Panther is because OKW will have won the game by the time the CP reaches Vet-3. It's as simple as that.

With the Mark Target ability (50% extra damage = 50% extra vet), it's not difficult to grind Veterancy either.

Find me a decent high-tier replay (post OKW-rework) where a Vet-3 CP did not manage to turn a match to the favour of an OKW (for an example that demonstrates the opposite, you can watch the Cup #12 EU finals).

23 Mar 2016, 10:12 AMAustralian Magic

As for the Command Panther, I think 10CPs is too low. M4C is 10CPs lel.
12CPs seems fine for it.

10 CPs will make the Vet-snowball effect more difficult to get; it still won't make it balanced. Would a pre-nerf Tiger Ace arriving at 32 CP be ok?

23 Mar 2016, 10:21 AMzarok47

To 1. Simply put, i see it as on of the main points of coh2: being rewarded for veterancy. The only unit that bypasses this is the sturm officer from the JT commander, a unit most people do not use (perhaps for this reason, or perhaps for other reasons). Personally, i never liked the unit for having no vet.

The Sturmofficer is an amazing utility unit (now that OKW has the munitions to spend it). The main reason you never see this unit in high-level play is the force-retreat debuff (lose that model and all nearby infantry retreats). Other reasons are:
- In order to get the best of this unit you need to blob, and blobbing loses games.
- In 1vs1, other commanders are better adapted to the more infantry-heavy combat

Aura units could, perhaps, unlock utility-based veterancy (throw smoke there etc). As I mentioned in the OP, the longer the game lasts, the more units will have benefited from staying in the aura.

23 Mar 2016, 10:21 AMzarok47

To 2. The command p4 survivablity also increases with veterancy (blitz and sideskirts) therefor i think that it's the general theme of such units. You get rewarded with more survivability for keeping these units alive.

The thing is that the Command Panther is already way more survivable than the P4, even at Vet0:
- More Armour
- Better speed
- Better gun, so that it can 1vs1 most flanking units

Any survivability veterancy on top of that is multiplicative.

How do you finish off a Command Panther with USF/Soviets? Any engagement that you lose while failing to wipe the Command Panther off means extra Veterancy for the CP.

With the Vet-Aura, this means extra stats for the entire OKW army.
However, this is about question #2. Question #1 is way more important.

23 Mar 2016, 10:21 AMzarok47

To 3. I think i alreadt touched upon this in my opening, but i shall write it down once more: Taking full effect of this commander, deminished the return on investment for the call-in. Besides that, as noted, you pay more for the command panther, and it comes in a doctrine.

The Command Panther NEEDS to cost more than Vanilla Panthers because:
- It retains the full combat capabilities of a Panther
- It has much better sight range than the Panther (55 vs 35)
- It has an aura that allows all your other tanks to spot for themselves.

(I'm not touching Mark Target here. Mark Target may as well have been a separate ability in the commander)

Besides, the doctrine is very very viable for all gamemodes (and not just for the Command Panther).

You have a great idea that improves the QoL aspects of the game? Please, drop your idea here:
https://www.coh2.org/topic/57860/some-qol-suggestions

Check out Cruzz's DPS calculator:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7gwy65JLbSRMEJ3M2ZPandMMW8/view?usp=sharing
(Download the file, open it with your browser)

Multi Quote

Reply

Posts: 1216

I like how it is, but it's also a head-scratcher compared with the P4 Command Tank, which is only good against light vehicles and infantry. Command Panther on the other hand is basically a bona fide Panther but with aura, there is pretty much nothing outside of higher cost and Coordinated Fire ability, it fights just like any other Panther (which OKW has ass non-doc as well).

As for why aura improces with veterancy, one has to take into account that
a) it takes a while to vet up, period
b) the aura affects only vehicles, and given the higher fuel cost, they're come later when you throw down 200 fuel for this unit
c) Command Panther does not benefit from the aura, even at vet5
d) stacking yes, but I doubt any sensible Axis team will want to to double Spec Ops Doctrine or more just for a late-game aura stack which could result in a vehicle presence of just two Command Panthers; my modus operandi, for instance, is if I ever see someone use a particular commander, I always choose another for diversity and synergy
e) lastly, it's the only unit call-in for Spec Ops, if it's nerfed then the appeal for this commander would considerably suffer

Overall, I agree that it's not a bad thing, it's only bad if OKW player ever manages to get past vet1, I like to babysit my investment (which unlike King Tiger doesn't have the armour to shrug off Su-85 attacks), but how often does a player achieve that? To vet up it has to fight, and fighting means you have to risk it in combat.

If anything though, it should be Panzer 4 Command Tank that gets this sort of aura buff over veterancy, given it's counters and lack of AT firepower.

Posts: 1653

23 Mar 2016, 10:00 AMMr.Smith

TL;DR: The Command Panther should probably not gain any veterancy at all; adjust price & performance accordingly:

The Command Panther would be the same as the Sturmoffizier with the breakthrough doctrine, which I dislike. I prefer to see a unit scale by vet and get a better aura by vet than have a 0 vet unit.

1. Why does the potency of the aura need to increase with veterancy? The potency of an aura de-facto increases over time already, as your army grows, anyway.

At vet 0 only the strong one is the +20 vision range, at vet 2 you get 20% more accuracy and at vet 3 20% faster reload, which is the strongest vet given by the aura in my opinion. This could be toned down.

2. Why does the survivability of an already resilient aura unit also need to increase over time?

Simple, because the standard Panther also got that increase at vet 2. Would be strange if a Command Panther wouldn't be more or as survivable as the normal one.

3. If an aura unit performs exactly the same as a combat unit and costs almost the same, where is the cost-benefit decision I need to make when I field my first Panther?

Strong question and mostly of the time it isn't a hard question to make. The command panther would go first, since the veterancy increase + aura increase over time should be build up earlier than your normal panther.

4. Aura stacking (i.e., auras affecting allied units) should not exist, but that's a separate issue.
This is indeed troubling, since you get OpieOP units because of the double buff.

The OKW Command Panther ability is a bundle of three abilities:
- A conditional Mark Target ability (requires the Command Panther to be alive to activate)
- An combat panther that can self-spot (comes early and also requires no teching)
- A very powerful aura, that also scales with Veterancy

(All of this for 560 Manpower, 225 Fuel & 35 Munitions per ability pop)

Do recognize that a heavy tank costs pretty much the same.

Yes, the Mark Target ability is cheaper/way better than the Soviet equivalent, but that's fine. This cost-performance mismatch is not what makes the Command Panther truly broken.

It's the fact that if the Command Panther ever reaches Vet2 then it's gg, regardles of the gamemode. This is because:
- The command panther receives a significant boost to its survivability at Vet2
- The effects of the aura already start to become extremely powerful at Vet2
- This will inevitable snowball into the Command Panther achieving Vet3/Vet4/Vet5, where each of the aura effects is extremely OP in-and-of themselves (and they stack!)

Have a look at the unit veterancy & aura for the Command Panther here: https://www.coh2.org/guides/29892/the-company-of-heroes-2-veterancy-guide

The million-dollar question I have for everyone is:
"Why do the effects of the aura of the Command Panther have to increase with veterancy?"
They could better make an overall buff of 10%, so it doesn't makes too much OpieOPness

- The effects of the aura already scale over time (more units fielded = more units that benefit from the aura)
- OKW extreme late-game would already be very powerful, even with a Vet0 Command Panther
- Is there a point in having such a deathswitch ("if you survive until minute 40:00 you win") so hardcoded into the game? Does it add any sort of strategic dimension?

- The effects of the aura already scale over time (more units fielded = more units that benefit from the aura)
- OKW extreme late-game would already be extremely powerful, even with a Vet0 Command Panther
- Is there a point in having such a deathswitch hardcoded into the game ("if you survive until minute 40:00 you win")? Does this add any sort of strategic dimension?

Posts: 587

23 Mar 2016, 11:58 AMsherlock

I agree that the commander is a tad odd in that it encourages to forgo t4 because you can get a superior panther without the need for the tech structure. However, I would argue that the argument regarding the diminishing effect doesn't really hold since the difference in cost to a vanilla panther is 25 fuel and 70 manpower (completely neglecting the cost for t4), hardly anything that would make you think twice and it's hardly anything that would prevent you from getting t4 either before getting the command panther or after. The difference can be more of a hurdle in 1v1 but in anything else, the difference is not a big hurdle.

It's a small difference indeed, made further worse that the call-in nature (bypassing tech) is not appliciable in the command panther situation because of the ober soldaten upgrade.

Yet i would still stand behind the idea that the command panther occupies a doctrinal slot and is more expensive as a reason for being what it is.

One can disagree on me wether or not it is enough a difference.
And ofc, 1vs1 is the focus of balance, so one should think from that perspective.

23 Mar 2016, 12:12 PMMr.Smith

It is important to differentiate this. In my OP I asked two questions:
1. Why does the AURA of the Command Tank have to improve with Veterancy?
2. Why do the UNIT STATS (survivability) of a unit that provides a strong aura have to improve with Veterancy.

The most important question to ask ourselves is #1; this is what makes this unit fundamentally broken (i.e., a deathswitch). I don't think any of the responses has even touched this question.

Perhaps because no can say its a death switch since no one ever saw a vet 5 command panther?

23 Mar 2016, 12:12 PMMr.Smith

The reason why you never see a vet-5 Command Panther is because OKW will have won the game by the time the CP reaches Vet-3. It's as simple as that.

With the Mark Target ability (50% extra damage = 50% extra vet), it's not difficult to grind Veterancy either.

Find me a decent high-tier replay (post OKW-rework) where a Vet-3 CP did not manage to turn a match to the favour of an OKW (for an example that demonstrates the opposite, you can watch the Cup #12 EU finals).

The bolded part is not as simple as that.
Plenty of times i've seen a command panther die before even reaching vet 2, let alone vet 3.
Claiming that a vet 3 command panther is an autowin is simply impossible without extensive back-up. Said back-up can certainly not exist out of a single game (assuming that game was won solely due to the command panther).

Besides that, finding a game where a vet 3 command panther did not turn the game is equally impossible, due to the same fact vet 3 command panthers are as rare as summer snow in the sahara.
Besides, im quite sure it would be diffecult enough to find a replay proving this even if vet 3 command panthers were common.

On another note, "grinding" vet with mark target for the command panther also isn't as simple as you claim since a: panther has a low RoF, so vet is still hard to attain and b. it needs to be in alot of armor fights and as said before, this is not what is most common about coh2.

Infact, it might even be true the command p4 attains vet faster since it can actually fight inf (and inf being the most used units in coh2)

23 Mar 2016, 12:12 PMMr.Smith

The thing is that the Command Panther is already way more survivable than the P4, even at Vet0:
- More Armour
- Better speed
- Better gun, so that it can 1vs1 most flanking units

Any survivability veterancy on top of that is multiplicative.

It's a panther compared to a p4, it's equally more expensive aswell.
Ofc it got better survibility, the opposite would actually be utterly out of place.

Besides that, the command p4 has AI capablities, whislt command panther is rather meh in that department.

23 Mar 2016, 12:12 PMMr.Smith

How do you finish off a Command Panther with USF/Soviets? Any engagement that you lose while failing to wipe the Command Panther off means extra Veterancy for the CP.

Same as you do a normal panther (p47, jacksons, mark target, su-85's t34-85's or simply use of atg's to name a few).

23 Mar 2016, 12:12 PMMr.Smith

The Command Panther NEEDS to cost more than Vanilla Panthers because:
- It retains the full combat capabilities of a Panther
- It has much better sight range than the Panther
- It has an aura that allows all your other tanks to spot for themselves.

As said, the command p5 already costs more and it comes with the picking of a doctrine.

To conclude, the command p5 is not a problem atm due to the fact vet 2-3 ones are rare, and vet 5 ones are unheard of.
Besides that, going for a command panther in a 1vs1, generally means no other vehicle's around to take advantage of the aura.
The only place were the command panther at vet0 could be a problem is in "higher" gamemodes which are not the focus of balance. (and i havent heard anyone complain about command panthers in 3vs3 or 4vs4)

No need to tamper with something that isn't a problem and might very well prove never to be one.

Posts: 1653

23 Mar 2016, 12:12 PMMr.Smith

It is important to differentiate this. In my OP I asked two questions:
1. Why does the AURA of the Command Tank have to improve with Veterancy?
2. Why do the UNIT STATS (survivability) of a unit that provides a strong aura have to improve with Veterancy.

The most important question to ask ourselves is #1; this is what makes this unit fundamentally broken (i.e., a deathswitch). I don't think any of the responses has even touched this question.

The aura that the Command Panther gets at Vet3 is already the strongest such aura in the game
- With the exception of UKF command vehicle, which is cumbersome to use due to the reduced speed

The reason why you never see a vet-5 Command Panther is because OKW will have won the game by the time the CP reaches Vet-3. It's as simple as that.

With the Mark Target ability (50% extra damage = 50% extra vet), it's not difficult to grind Veterancy either.

Find me a decent high-tier replay (post OKW-rework) where a Vet-3 CP did not manage to turn a match to the favour of an OKW (for an example that demonstrates the opposite, you can watch the Cup #12 EU finals).

10 CPs will make the Vet-snowball effect more difficult to get; it still won't make it balanced. Would a pre-nerf Tiger Ace arriving at 32 CP be ok?

The Sturmofficer is an amazing utility unit (now that OKW has the munitions to spend it). The main reason you never see this unit in high-level play is the force-retreat debuff (lose that model and all nearby infantry retreats). Other reasons are:
- In order to get the best of this unit you need to blob, and blobbing loses games.
- In 1vs1, other commanders are better adapted to the more infantry-heavy combat

Aura units could, perhaps, unlock utility-based veterancy (throw smoke there etc). As I mentioned in the OP, the longer the game lasts, the more units will have benefited from staying in the aura.

The thing is that the Command Panther is already way more survivable than the P4, even at Vet0:
- More Armour
- Better speed
- Better gun, so that it can 1vs1 most flanking units

Any survivability veterancy on top of that is multiplicative.

How do you finish off a Command Panther with USF/Soviets? Any engagement that you lose while failing to wipe the Command Panther off means extra Veterancy for the CP.

With the Vet-Aura, this means extra stats for the entire OKW army.
However, this is about question #2. Question #1 is way more important.

The Command Panther NEEDS to cost more than Vanilla Panthers because:
- It retains the full combat capabilities of a Panther
- It has much better sight range than the Panther
- It has an aura that allows all your other tanks to spot for themselves.

(I'm not touching Mark Target here. Mark Target may as well have been a separate ability in the commander)

Besides, the doctrine is very very viable for all gamemodes (and not just for the Command Panther).

Can you give a link to the #12 EU finals, can't find it on youtube. Curious if I can find the feeling that it's a deathswitch.

Posts: 2636 | Subs: 17

23 Mar 2016, 13:06 PMIron Emperor

Can you give a link to the #12 EU finals, can't find it on youtube. Curious if I can find the feeling that it's a deathswitch.

http://play.eslgaming.com/companyofheroes2/europe/coh2-tbf/major/go4coh2-europe/cup-12/match/33527554/

(2 games on Arnhem, last game on Semoskiy Winter)

This is the best I could find. I saw the live casted by A_E, thus you might be able to locate the relevant game on his Twitch stream.

In all 3 games, both players picked OKW vs Soviets. In all 3 games both players picked the Spec Ops doctrine. Neither of the players even bothered to field STG Obers.
- In all games, the Vet0 Command Panther already proved to be more than efficient for its cost (because of the Coordinated Fire ability)
- In the last game, you can see how a Vet2 Command Panther manages to turn a losing game.

Game 3 spoilers:

Luvnest picked Lend-Lease and was using M4C Shermans

Throughout the game, the Command Panther holds the line with the Coordinated Fire ability and vets up slowly.

Towards the end of the game, the Command Panther reaches vet2. Luvnest knows that he cannot turn the game around with that Vet2 aura buffing Noganno's Luchs (accuracy + speed > reload for Luchs).

Thus, Luvnext throws his entire M4C Sherman army.

23 Mar 2016, 13:03 PMzarok47

Perhaps because no can say its a death switch since no one ever saw a vet 5 command panther?

A Vet3 Command Panther is a death-switch enough. If you compare:
- The Vet3 Aura bonuses of the Command Panther
- To the Veterancy bonuses of ANY unit in ANY faction at ANY tier

you will also notice that a Vet3 Panther:
- Immediately awards 1-2 stars of GOOD veterancy (as in not crappy EFA Vet1) to each affected unit
- Nothing prevents a vetted unit to stack its own veterancy on top of the aura-awarded veterancy

.. and that's only because you managed to keep ONE unit alive the whole game. Your army doesn't have to be Panther/P4 spam. It could be a Luchs/Puma-hybrid spam backed by a Command Tank:
- Each Vet0 Puma replacement immediately turns into a Vet2 Puma
- Each Vet2 Luchs will turn into a sniper with auto-fire

Did I also mention that the range of the aura is massive?

23 Mar 2016, 13:03 PMzarok47

The bolded part is not as simple as that.
Plenty of times i've seen a command panther die before even reaching vet 2, let alone vet 3.
Claiming that a vet 3 command panther is an autowin is simply impossible without extensive back-up. Said back-up can certainly not exist out of a single game (assuming that game was won solely due to the command panther).

Try to watch the EU cup #12 final somewhere. Particularly the last game (although the Command Panther was fielded in all 3 games).

23 Mar 2016, 13:03 PMzarok47

Infact, it might even be true the command p4 attains vet faster since it can actually fight inf (and inf being the most used units in coh2)

The command P4 aura is insanely strong, mainly for infantry. The reason I am complaining about the P5 here and not the P4 is that the command aura of the P5:
- Improves with Veterancy
- Becomes gamebreaking already at Vet3

The Command P4 also SACRIFICES something with respect to the vanilla P4:
- You need to use other units to cover up with AT to keep the P4 alive from armour rushes

Instead with the P5:
- If somebody tries to bumrush my P5 with armour, they will just feed me vet, and I'll steamroll them
- They try to bumrush me with infantry/AT guns, I'll just relocate. The P5 is maneuverable enough
- The P5 is also 80% more durable than the P4 (even with the auras taken into account)
- I also get a cool sight-range for free with my P5 to plan my assaults

You have a great idea that improves the QoL aspects of the game? Please, drop your idea here:
https://www.coh2.org/topic/57860/some-qol-suggestions

Check out Cruzz's DPS calculator:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7gwy65JLbSRMEJ3M2ZPandMMW8/view?usp=sharing
(Download the file, open it with your browser)

Multi Quote

Reply

Posts: 677

23 Mar 2016, 10:00 AMMr.Smith

TL;DR: The Command Panther should probably not gain any veterancy at all; adjust price & performance accordingly:

1. Why does the potency of the aura need to increase with veterancy? The potency of an aura de-facto increases over time already, as your army grows, anyway.
....

(Edited since I was looking to wrong stats...)

Command panther reaches vet 1 at 3120 (14% more)Xp while a Panther at 2730.

Finally imo the Aura system should be benefit from experience. Aura units should start with lower bonuses that should progressive become better. Else this unis will difficult to balance since they will either be too strong early normal in late game or good early useless late.

In the current system unit preservation for aura units that can be replaced serves little purpose and they can be used like normal units