OKW Command Panther veterancy is a bit broken

Imo the C.Pan should follow the C. PZ4 model be same price but a worse at combat stats...

Have lower or same XP value as OKW Panther and both command tanks should have weak starting auras that become better with veterancy...

That would C. tanks worth preserving and give player the choice of either using as a support to other vehicles or risk them in combat to gain better auras...

The Command Panther is and has been an issue at least ever since the OKW rework when the CP was made extremely accessible. When Relic concluded OKW rework, it seems that they have left out some rough edges. Without the community pointing these out, I doubt that Relic will ever even consider fixing these issues.

Sure, I agree with you that the Command Panther is and has been overshadowed by other, more blatantly-broken commanders and abilities. However, that doesn't stop the Command Panther from also being broken. IT has been already 4 months now, and I believe that it is now finally the turn for the Command Panther to also be rebalanced.

I've already diverted enough of my attention to do the analysis carefully, and I've presented my case in the OP, and the subsequent responses.

Now, this is where I struggle to understand the point you are trying to make. Do you argue that something in my analysis doesn't hold? Or perhaps that I am drawing a wrong conclusion somewhere? I would appreciate your feedback. However, I cannot see a single good reason not to point out such a glaring balance oversight.

The real problem with the CP starts when it reaches vet 2+ and has multiple armour assist. When you have a normal panther + Pz4 or Luch the fun really starts. On it's own it's just an Panther, without the veterancy benefits of a regular Panther for OKW.

I'd say a really intense game goes around 40+ min. The time needed for a Kingtiger and JP4 to appear is about 34min, given a 20f income per minute. Btw, I never mentioned your "KT+JP4+Command Panther" combination - pls don't twist my words so you can defame me as 4v4 scrub.

I'm not defaming you.

But you do know the larger the game mode, the more tanks you can field in the same time frame?

and that's why OKW is OP in 4v4

Perfectly fine unit.

I'm not defaming you.

But you do know the larger the game mode, the more tanks you can field in the same time frame?

and that's why OKW is OP in 4v4

Just because it's less likely to happen in 2v2 doesn't mean it is less OP when in action. What most people in this thread fail to realize is the strength of a Command Panther that is vet4-5 because they´ve never seen or experienced one.

Just because it's less likely to happen in 2v2 doesn't mean it is less OP when in action. What most people in this thread fail to realize is the strength of a Command Panther that is vet4-5 because they´ve never seen or experienced one.

It's because it is never intended to let you reach vet 4/5 in a normal game,

otherwise: OKW - Super late game powerhouse roadmap

It's because it is never intended to let you reach vet 4/5 in a normal game,

otherwise: OKW - Super late game powerhouse roadmap

If it is not intended that the Command Panther ever reach vet4/5 (and partly Vet3), why not remove these bonuses altogether to ensure that this situation never arises?

This is what my OP is (mostly) about.

If it is not intended that the Command Panther ever reach vet4/5 (and partly Vet3), why not remove these bonuses altogether to ensure that this situation never arises?

This is what my OP is (mostly) about.

He said in a normal game. Its supposed to require exception play in a tight match to earn those very powerful bonuses, else it would be OP (see roaming vetted shreks blobs for example)

If it is not intended that the Command Panther ever reach vet4/5 (and partly Vet3), why not remove these bonuses altogether to ensure that this situation never arises?

This is what my OP is (mostly) about.

because they still want OKW to dominate super-late game.

It's intended obviously

TL;DR: The Command Panther should probably not gain any veterancy at all; adjust price & performance accordingly:

1. Why does the potency of the aura need to increase with veterancy? The potency of an aura de-facto increases over time already, as your army grows, anyway.
2. Why does the survivability of an already resilient aura unit also need to increase over time?
3. If an aura unit performs exactly the same as a combat unit and costs almost the same, where is the cost-benefit decision I need to make when I field my first Panther?
4. Aura stacking (i.e., auras affecting allied units) should not exist, but that's a separate issue.

The OKW Command Panther ability is a bundle of three abilities:
- A conditional Mark Target ability (requires the Command Panther to be alive to activate)
- An combat panther that can self-spot (comes early and also requires no teching)
- A very powerful aura, that also scales with Veterancy

(All of this for 560 Manpower, 225 Fuel & 35 Munitions per ability pop)

Yes, the Mark Target ability is cheaper/way better than the Soviet equivalent, but that's fine. This cost-performance mismatch is not what makes the Command Panther truly broken.

It's the fact that if the Command Panther ever reaches Vet2 then it's gg, regardles of the gamemode. This is because:
- The command panther receives a significant boost to its survivability at Vet2
- The effects of the aura already start to become extremely powerful at Vet2
- This will inevitable snowball into the Command Panther achieving Vet3/Vet4/Vet5, where each of the aura effects is extremely OP in-and-of themselves (and they stack!)

Have a look at the unit veterancy & aura for the Command Panther here: https://www.coh2.org/guides/29892/the-company-of-heroes-2-veterancy-guide

The million-dollar question I have for everyone is:
"Why do the effects of the aura of the Command Panther have to increase with veterancy?"

- The effects of the aura already scale over time (more units fielded = more units that benefit from the aura)
- OKW extreme late-game would already be very powerful, even with a Vet0 Command Panther
- Is there a point in having such a deathswitch ("if you survive until minute 40:00 you win") so hardcoded into the game? Does it add any sort of strategic dimension?

Since the aura only effects vehicles until vet 5, I do not find it that powerful. I generally can only field 1 or 2 other vehicles besides the Command Panther at most, hopefully a KT among them.

The Command Panther is also very expensive, if I've been able to save up 225 fuel I almost always push to 310 for the KT, which is much more durable and effective for the cost. The Command Panther ultimately is only an expensive, harder-to-vet Panther if you don't have other vehicles around for it to boost. I'll bring the Command Panther in second to back the KT up and help it maneuver.

However you seem to find the Command Panther really powerful, and reaching high vet levels in many games. I suspect then you are mostly playing big multiplayer games where there are a lot of vehicles.

The most useful attribute of the Command Panther has never been its aura IMHO, but its visual range. Which I find indispensable.

Joseph

lmfao is this a joke? The CP is completely fine.

Allies fanboi has recently turned into axis fanboi! Kappa

aura affecting teammate is so BS.

Since the aura only effects vehicles until vet 5, I do not find it that powerful. I generally can only field 1 or 2 other vehicles besides the Command Panther at most, hopefully a KT among them.

The Command Panther is also very expensive, if I've been able to save up 225 fuel I almost always push to 310 for the KT, which is much more durable and effective for the cost. The Command Panther ultimately is only an expensive, harder-to-vet Panther if you don't have other vehicles around for it to boost. I'll bring the Command Panther in second to back the KT up and help it maneuver.

Sure, if you try field a Command Panther & a KT, you probably will never get enough fuel for any other vehicle. However, ALL vehicles benefit from the CP aura, including the Mechanized-truck vehicles.

(instead of a KT) A more efficient way to use the aura is to field:
- 2 P4s
- or completely skip T4 and spend the fuel on Luchs/Pumas if needed

That way, you do get a small army of vehicles which:
- Is self-spotting
- At Vet3 becomes at least 25% more effective
- At Vet4 becomes absolutely devastating, and can kite their counterparts

Don't forget that Coordinated Fire will turn any vehicle into a monster when you want to swarm enemy heavy tanks.

However you seem to find the Command Panther really powerful, and reaching high vet levels in many games. I suspect then you are mostly playing big multiplayer games where there are a lot of vehicles.

The most useful attribute of the Command Panther has never been its aura IMHO, but its visual range. Which I find indispensable.

Joseph

Your intuition is correct. This is why I am asking to, at least, cap the CP Veterancy to a reasonable level (somewhere just below Vet3):
- Since it's incredibly rare for the CP to even reach Vet2/3 on 1v1s it will not affect balance for that gamemode, anyway
- Capping the veterancy of the unit will make it be a bit less unbalanced for bigger games. Neither OKW nor the Spec Ops doctrine struggle at all in the extreme-late game. Thus I don't see any reason at all not to go ahead with that change.

I realy dont understand this discussion. Before I start, a disclaimer; vet 5 is dumb. You NEVER reach vet 5 in any game of any skill as it is over before. Its still dumb to have vet 5. As far as I care they can scrap vet 5. I never reached it anyways, replace it with a 20 % reload on cp or something. They can replace it with an ability to fart pink ponies for again, you dont reach it. Already vet 3 is very rare.

I cindly ask those people who say it needs nerfing so bad to simply play a few games with the CP and actualy reach those vet levels... I have attached a video of a CP reaching vet 4.5 and I still loose. Granted my mate was not up to the challenge but thats then exactly how it should be eh?

The truth is you cant skip the last tech with any commander atm as you simply need obers and/or tanks. You might do it with pfüssiliers and jagdtiger but thats about it and I dont advise it either. And once you have t1/t2 and t3 up it is a mere 120 +65 or 55 fuel more for a KT.

I have analised the CP in more detail in my last post. But again, yes it is a good unit, no it needs atleast 2 other tanks to be stronger than just a regular panther, not counting mark vehicle which is very strong but costs munitions. Thanks to mark target the CP is always worth it over a normal panther which is fine as it costs more and is the defining unit of the commander. Why wouldnt it be good? The elefant, isu, jagdtiger/tiger are also all way more effective/price than stock units. If this werent the case then why have doctrines?

Hulled down Elephant and Ostwind with support od CPIV and CPV on Minsk Pocket.

My biggest wet dream

Lets make the game just punishing and take of everyking of reward feeling and cooperative things, it will be awesome and totally worth to play... And yes, its sarcasm

Its so strange logic, i dont see vet 5 com panther so its fine. I dont see vet 3 penals , so its fine ? I dont see vet 5 obers, mean that there vet are fine and unit ?

Lets make the game just punishing and take of everyking of reward feeling and cooperative things, it will be awesome and totally worth to play... And yes, its sarcasm

I completely agree with you that veterancy should be rewarding. However, a unit that completely breaks the game just because it reaches a particular level of veterancy is not. The Vet4/Vet5 Command Panther is currently the most game-breaking unit in the game; by far.

There is no amount of Veterancy or army composition that the enemy team can put up to make up for the Vet4 +5 range bonus, or the Vet5 "let's-yolo-apply-all-buffs-to-infantry-too" bonus. A 50-range KT is not fun to play against. Vet0 Volksgrenadiers that outrange all other infantry in the game is also broken. That's just some of the "fun" effects of the CP.

Other units also get ridiculous veterancy bonuses (not the topic of this thread). However, Relic should be careful when applying these bonuses to aura units; these can easily just scale out of hand.

Its so strange logic, i dont see vet 5 com panther so its fine. I dont see vet 3 penals , so its fine ? I dont see vet 5 obers, mean that there vet are fine and unit ?

That's precisely my point, thank you!

For instance, take the AEC tread shot. Did you know that when it hits it immobilizes the vehicle for 20 seconds (50 range 50-ish munitions)?

However, mostly due to bugs and the conditions needed to trigger this effect, you don't see that immobilization very often do you? This doesn't stop the effect from being broken. However, not even the tread shot effect comes anywhere near as close as the Command Panther.

I cindly ask those people who say it needs nerfing so bad to simply play a few games with the CP and actualy reach those vet levels... I have attached a video of a CP reaching vet 4.5 and I still loose. Granted my mate was not up to the challenge but thats then exactly how it should be eh?

This vastly depends on the gamemode. However, it is not too difficult to get a CP to Vet3 in bigger teammodes. I would say that in 1 out of 10 games I use the CP I do manage to reach that Vet level; the effect of the aura already feels overpowering at Vet3.

The truth is you cant skip the last tech with any commander atm as you simply need obers and/or tanks. You might do it with pfüssiliers and jagdtiger but thats about it and I dont advise it either. And once you have t1/t2 and t3 up it is a mere 120 +65 or 55 fuel more for a KT.

The way I, personally, do it is create 4-5 Volks, get Raketenwerfers for AT. Then I envelop the target from all directions possible and I use my saved munitions to spam infiltration nades.

Perhaps my unit preservation skills suck, but I've found it very difficult to keep Obersoldaten squads alive with all the amount of RNG wipes going currently in the game. So, why pay more for less?

I have analised the CP in more detail in my last post. But again, yes it is a good unit, no it needs atleast 2 other tanks to be stronger than just a regular panther, not counting mark vehicle which is very strong but costs munitions.

Raketenwerfers also synergise with the CP Coordinated Fire brilliantly. Try to bait your enemy to your CP, pop coordinated fire and let those little guns fire.

Don't neglect the added sight range.

Thanks to mark target the CP is always worth it over a normal panther which is fine as it costs more and is the defining unit of the commander. Why wouldnt it be good? The elefant, isu, jagdtiger/tiger are also all way more effective/price than stock units. If this werent the case then why have doctrines?

Those are all very strong units. However even for those super-heavies, there is always some tradeoffs to be made between stock units and doctrinal units.

Sure, the elefant has longer range than the Stug, but it's also significantly slower, and it's nowhere near as cost-efficient. The Tiger has good AI, but AT-wise it's nowhere near as manoeuvrable as the Panther, and nowhere as cheap or fast as the (weaker) P4.

I just don't see a similar trade-off between the OKW Panther and the CP. Yes, the CP needs to be strong (to justify the doctrine choice & higher price), but it could be stronger in more subtle ways.

Its not gamebreaking, i havent saw a single match were this tank was "buff, its imñosible to win because that panther", even more, i bet nobody had problems with this tank than a normal pather with tank comander upgrade, and trust me that I saw some getting that bet, on paper sounds monstruous, on a normal game? Not so much

aura affecting teammate is so BS.

They took that ability out on the Command Panzer IV and then reintroduced it because noone built it any longer.

Further having a Command Panther and another vehicle is usually only common in the longest games. Nullifying the aspect of supporting your teammates would not only take out an aspect of teamplay but also render the Command Panther rather useless.