Not more than yours. but lets not fill a thread about WBP 1.3 with irrelevant issues...
Soviet need to pay 125/25 for AT grenade access
Ostheer need to pay 80/10 for Faust access, green access, mortar access and sniper access...
fixed for you! |
- It's a boring overlap to just have a shitty version of the Ziss gun on Tier1, whether or not its got some gimicks to make it useful. PTRS Penals is a more unique approach that's completely different to the Ziss gun. This makes Tier1 actually feel unique instead of "It's Tier2 minus the Maxim." since you could argue that Sniper and Mortar fill a similar role. (dislodging and harassing static units)
If you don´t like m-42 coz is a shitty version of the ziss gun, maybe you won´t like PTRS penals as they are the shitty version of Guards, that came at only 2 CP.
- M42 won't scale into the late game where as PTRS Penals are mobile and still decent due to deflection damage. (Assuming that Penals can get a 3rd PTRS option later on in the game which we have coming for 1.3) If M42 gets deflection damage its then going to be the only AT gun in the game with deflection, where as all infantry-based AT weapons have deflection damage
rak is the only atgun that can garrison and retreat at this moment, and I don´t see a problem with that.Why m42 can´t be the only one with deflection damage??? we like asimetrical balance and combined arms....both are reasons to give m42 to tier1 and deflection damage to m-42
- It will require the commanders with M42 on it to have a new ability, which will be more work and would put it even more out of scope of the patch
you can leave the m42 on the commander without problems, modify the thing so it came as an M42 without crew and with prize reduction as you already have in other commanders (airbone gives you a t1 unit in the commander but without crew...same way should work for the m42).
- Having to build the M-42 instead of just upgrading PTRS to ward off light vehicles will make Tier 1 even weaker, and that's the opposite of what the concern is now of making people actually want to go Tier1 over Conspam and/or T2. Conspam gives better early game pressure and more AT utility, Tier 2 is more robust and gives better strategic flexibility (and Maxims are OP) Without Flamer Penals being so overpowered, and with Guards being nerfed, what reasons is there for players to want to go Tier1? The only real reason is the Sniper and better scaling of Penals compared to Conscripts.
sniper and penals are enough reasons to go SU tier1 if you think on others factions tier1 as OKW (only give you LEIG) or USF Tier1, with no AT except for the Zook in the m20 crews...
- Whilst not necccesary buffing the anti tank of Soviets due to the heavy investment it requires, PTRS Penals give strategic flexibility to anti-tank in ways that all other factions have, since M42 will have the same counters and vulnerabilities as Ziss. In team games, Soviets can be in a very limiting spot late game if heavy Axis Tank destroyers nullify all their armour and Offmaps, Rocket Arty & Sturmtiger can constantly deny AT guns. With no infantry-based AT, Soviets have little options in these situations.
m42 will fight LV and will help better AT tools to deal at least with mediums...
is not rocket Arty & sturmtiger hardconunter of HAT infantry???
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Today it might be the Centaur vaporising the Centaur (which could be solved by offsetting other parameters; e.g., penetration). Tomorrow it might be the P4 vs the Cromwell (which could easily be solved by lowering Cromwell's armour).
If we start arbitrarily adding ad-hoc rules to "regulate" some weird matchup, I will need to read considerably more information to get a grip of what's going on.
For instance, I regularly consult stat.coh2.hu to get a grip of what's going on with a particular weapon. Look at the page for the T-34/76 gun for instance, and how few lines I need to read:
http://stat.coh2.hu/weapon.php?filename=t34_76mm_mp
Just look how small the page is, and how much time it takes for your eyes to take in every single bit of information.
1) Adding arbitrary parameters means that an entire web of support tools will become unusable:
- stat.coh2.hu will need to be updated
- I'll have to update my DPS calculator
- Cruzz will also have to update his tools.
At some point the effort of keeping up will be too much, and those guys might decide to "you know what? I think I'll give up".
Then I will have nobody else to cross-reference any data I gather.
2) Adding per-target rules
As I hinted before, if I am given an 1-dimensional array of parameters, I can rank them from better to worse. And by ranking them I can reuse anything I learned about a unit to apply to its counters and its counters' counters and so on.
If you are given a 2-dimensional array, how do you even begin ranking things? For every single matchup I need to consider, I will have to start from scratch.
3) Finally 1000 times this:
ok, it is clear you won´t use target tables and that´s fine....your arguments though....
1. did you need to surf the whole stat.coh2.hu webpage in order to check t34/76 data??? do you???
2. I prefere a balanced game without a webpage where I can find data, that a inbalance game with a great webpage with stats of the imbalanced game..
3. so you won´t use one of the availabe tools, becasuse others tools of your own would stop working?
4. You say "Finally 1000 times this:" and at same time you insist that using target tables imply that target table will have 2500 combinations....one (you only use for verry specific cases) or another....not both mate.
"NO NO" is not the way to go...
"I don´t want modify my own toools..." is not the way to go....
anyway, Thanks for your answers and the great effort done by you and others balancing this awsome game, but man, you are the one to get a better game, and you should hear what community want to tell you (no whay I say that I don´t have the knowlegde to balance this game, but others....), just my opinion.
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That's provided that I know that the M20 can cause this.
In order to verify that no matchup presents issues, I will have to do either or both of the following:
- Check each of these entries by hand
- Play out every single of the 2500 combinations in the live game
No go.
well, if you see a puma evaporized in front of a m20, sure you won´t start searching in the entries of the target table related to churchills....but ok, no go....
and...why the hell are you going to have 2500 combinations???? you know you won´t end with that amount of combinations as you only need to have target tables for a very low number of those combinations... |
To give you an extreme example:
- We know that the 222 can easily kill the m20
- We also know that the Puma can effortlessly kill the 222
- Thus it is very likely that the Puma can also effortlessly kill the m20
If we start using target tables we may introduce a bug such that m20's main machinegun deals 90000000% more damage vs Pumas. Obviously, none of us have either the will or the time or the motivation to go through every single one of those 2500 combinations to ensure that such freak errors do not occur, and will never occur in the future.
Well, you only have to check target table entries related to M20.....no the 2500 combinations you are talking about.....
Indeed you won´t have 2500 entries, only the ones you need....or using target tables requires to have an entry for each combination even it is empty or with no impact into the game outcomes??? |
Why not fix what would improve the game, especially if it is an easy fix.
Most Broken things are bugs and should be fixed anyway they also have little to do with balance...
yeah, I completely agree with you vipper, but in the balance section of this forum, in a thread dedicated to OKW, talking about something that 1) is not related only to OKW but any faction, and 2) is not broken, only "boring" is not "fixing bugs nor improving the game"....
u know, what is boring for me, is enjoyable for others....so yeah, gonna fix the broken things, and gonna improve the game...for all.
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My point is that:
1) None of the other factions suffer from MG spam as much as OKW does.
2) This topic is about OKW explicitly, and I hinted at their issue against MGs.
3) If I have an opinion regarding OKW, in an OKW-only thread, it doesn't make sense to mention other, irrelevant matchups even by name (e.g., USF vs OST). What purpose would that even serve?
The "Let's keep X broken, because Y broken too"-mentality is the only guaranteed way to make sure that no issue will ever gets addressed. What's so wrong about fixing both X and Y? What is so wrong about only fixing X, and then, maybe also fixing Y later on?
there is nothing wrong in fixing both X and Y, only if X and Y are broken, of course....but here, there is no X or Y broken....as you already told us in this same thread, it is only "boring"....so, again, going back to the point where I started to reply you, let´s fix what is broken, not what is boring in your opinion....
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The examples that you mentioned (Stuart vs OST or T70 rush vs Axis) are great examples of other problematic play-counterplay issues in the game.
As long as one player (the "attacker") can choose a particular strategy that shoehorns the other player (the "defender") to follow one particular playstyle to counter this, doesn't increase the game's strategic depth; it diminishes it. Particularly so if the only avenue available to the defender is not barely even viable.
Using these attack patterns to shoehorn the defender to play in the same predictable way is not "outplaying" your opponent. It is using knowledge of the current meta to completely deprive your enemy of choice about how they want to develop their army composition.
Every choice made by the attacker should afford the defender at least 2 viable ways to counter the threat. That way the defender is also given the choice to make their trade-offs than follow the exact same script game-in, game-out.
It is great that some factions have certain playstyles more developed than other playstyles; it adds flavouring to the game. What's not fine is that some factions have barely one playstyle available to them that makes them even conceivably playable.
yeah, that´s the point....it took you two great wall of texts arrive to the point where my post started....
if all factions suffer the same problem, why you propose fixing the case that is boring for you????? it shouldn´t be a matter of boring/exciting but a matter of balance what we chooose to fix/update/change...
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The way I see it, if somebody goes maxim spam and manages to secure the critical garrison in all the decent gamemodes, the only options for OKW are:
- ISG spam (artillery)
- Stuka, to at least pull down the garrisons (artillery).
Thus, if the Soviet player goes Maxim spam, that only leaves the OKW player with only one single type of playing; artillery. That is way too predictable and lame.
If I wanted my playstyle to restrict my opponents and make their playing predictable, I wouldn't even bother with multiplayer. I would just stick with CPU stomp.
As for sturmpioneers, of course they need to give up some utility to get smoke grenades; duh. They don't even have enough space in their UI currently to add a new ability anyway.
I've already enumerated all (rather the only) option that OKW has vs MG spam. Would you be as kind to fill up the various types of playstyles (not units) available to the other factions to counter MG spam?
OST - ?
Soviets - ?
USF - ?
UKF - ?
When you start start filling up the number of options for these factions, perhaps you are going to realise why OKW feels like such a chore to play against a decent MG spammer.
oh well, maxim is the only one "offensive" mg so I don´t see the point in filling up what you ask me....anyway,
if SU player dind´t go maxim spam, but he rush a t70, then, how many options OKW has??? I don´t think OKW player has 3 o 4 types of playstyles, yet I suppose you don´t get bored then, so it is fine....
if USF player goes rush stuart, how many options has OTS players??? don´t know, you are loooking for problems where there aren´t......you have the tools to counter maxim spam, but it is so boring for you that, hey, gonna give more options so Mr. Smith don´t have to go play compstomp....
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My three biggest gripes when playing OKW are:
- Lack of smoke
- Lack of healing, unless MedHQ or Vet1 Sturmpioneers
- Lack of tools to dislodge a Maxim spammer (especially in teamgames), except for artillery piece spam (which I find boring)
When facing maxim spam, it is next to impossible to get Sturmpioneers to vet1. Thus, you either bite the bullet and go MechHQ (while bleeding to death), or you go MedHQ and spam ISGs (while getting bored to death). And, god forbid if the map is dominated by a garrison that the Maxim occupies.
My solution to this would be:
- Give Sturmpioneers a high-cooldown (say 60 seconds) short-range smoke grenade ability, and take it from there.
are you serious??? so OKW has a tool that work nice againts maxim spammers, but you want to give sturmpioneers smoke just because you find using leigs boring??? LOL.
and then, yeah, your solution is to give smoke to spios, LOL, the OKW squad with more utilities, another one added, great man. |