How to fix: OKW

The "Let's keep X broken, because Y broken too"-mentality is the only guaranteed way to make sure that no issue will ever gets addressed. What's so wrong about fixing both X and Y? What is so wrong about only fixing X, and then, maybe also fixing Y later on?

If everyone is wrong then nobody is wrong, right?

OKW suffers against maxim spam, not MG spam, let's at least be clear with that.

You are correct. They suffer against suppression platforms.

If Vickers were performing like an MG42, OKW would also have issue vs Vickers. 50cal comes too late, and USF doesn't really need force multipliers to win the AI fight.

My point is that:
1) None of the other factions suffer from MG spam as much as OKW does.
2) This topic is about OKW explicitly, and I hinted at their issue against MGs.
3) If I have an opinion regarding OKW, in an OKW-only thread, it doesn't make sense to mention other, irrelevant matchups even by name (e.g., USF vs OST). What purpose would that even serve?

The "Let's keep X broken, because Y broken too"-mentality is the only guaranteed way to make sure that no issue will ever gets addressed. What's so wrong about fixing both X and Y? What is so wrong about only fixing X, and then, maybe also fixing Y later on?

there is nothing wrong in fixing both X and Y, only if X and Y are broken, of course....but here, there is no X or Y broken....as you already told us in this same thread, it is only "boring"....so, again, going back to the point where I started to reply you, let´s fix what is broken, not what is boring in your opinion....

... again, going back to the point where I started to reply you, let´s fix what is broken, not what is boring in your opinion....

Why not fix what would improve the game, especially if it is an easy fix.

Most Broken things are bugs and should be fixed anyway they also have little to do with balance...

Why not fix what would improve the game, especially if it is an easy fix.

Most Broken things are bugs and should be fixed anyway they also have little to do with balance...

yeah, I completely agree with you vipper, but in the balance section of this forum, in a thread dedicated to OKW, talking about something that 1) is not related only to OKW but any faction, and 2) is not broken, only "boring" is not "fixing bugs nor improving the game"....

u know, what is boring for me, is enjoyable for others....so yeah, gonna fix the broken things, and gonna improve the game...for all.

...so yeah, gonna fix the broken things, and gonna improve the game...for all.

In my opinion giving smoke to Lieg and some specialized OKW infantry would improve the game especially if incendiary grenades where removed from V.G. (as other mainline infantry).

Imo Smoke grenades and anti-garrison grenades should be limited to specialized infantry and not mainline infantry. That utility would entourage people to use more units types.

The thing I particularly disagree with concerning volks nades is that these are the only real anti garrison grenades. All the other ones (with current garrison mechanics) can easily be dodged in a split second. Okw nades however detonate instantly and contiue to inflict dot, denying garrisons over time, instead of punishing an unbserving opponent. The observant opponent dodges normal nades like piece of cake. Since Okw don't have flamers, I don't know how to address this though. Taking it away would make garrisons super op agains okw...

..Taking it away would make garrisons super op agains okw...

I was not taking about removing anti-garrison from OKW I was talking about moving it to specialized unit. For instance SP could get WP grenade with both shot blocking and Anti garrison properties, Ober could have their Blendkörper grenade at VET0

doctrinal solutions:
infiltration tactics
FJ could get a could have their Blendkörper at vet and their bundle at Vet 1
PF could have the grenade replaced by incendiary
JLIR could also get a incendiary

DOT weapon are far better for spawning units since that would allow enemy player the time to react...

One could even improve the Leig and Luch vs garrison a bit...

I'm not gonna go in order of importance but rather what i'm seeing here in order http://stat.coh2.hu/okw.php


-Reduce incremental value of units when they get vet4 or vet 5
-Make it so that vanilla weapon crew deals the same (low) damage as other crews from other factions
-Volks: (somehow) they can pick up a weapon from ground after they upgrade to STG but it overlaps one of the STGs.
-Sturm: medkit stash procs an AoE healing. No longer requires vet. Replace vet1 with 25% construction rate from vet 3. Move from vet 5 "no longer receive penalties while repairing" to vet 3
-Kubel: detection has a cd. MASSIVELY reduce vet requirements.
-Rak: cd on cloak. Reduce aim time and balance it with reload.
-ISG: better antigarrison capabilities. Smoke and Hollow shells (modal). Reduce by 10 AA range but keep it on barrage (which has to be part of an overall change to indirect fire for all factions, AA less effective but improved barrage)
-IR HT: fixed maphack.
-Flak HT: +20hp, smoke cost muni, improved weapon performance (specially antigarrison), QOL on setup time and if possible bugfixing
-P2: fixed mg for cautious movement (cd on skill)

Regarding medics:
-Make it an upgrade tech on HQ. After researched, give it X cost (mp or muni) and you can build medics on HQ or on Battlegroup
or
-Medics comes with BG HQ. Increase cost to deploy Flak HQ with the current medic upgrade cost.

Regarding Flak HQ:
-Deploying Flak HQ comes with Obers n JPIV. It cost half it's current cost but doesn't have access to PIV, PV or the flak gun. Flak gun upgrade unlocks the rest.

-Ober: whatever change makes them slightly more cost effective prior to hitting later vet stages. Vet4 passive suppression becomes either a defensive stance not been able to toggle on combat or becomes a muni suppression ability (just remove the passive suppression).
Just read it: swap cancer nade with nuke nade. Nuke nade unlocks on vet instead.
-JPIV: phaseshift and ridiculous vet5
-PIV: (in general) +10 pen ?

Doctrinal:
-IR STG: adjust it so it's more on the AR profile
-Heavy fortifications: increase construction rate
-Flak bunkers: OKW inside base flak HQ are replaced with MG bunkers. The HQ flak bunkers are moved to be buildable from heavy fortifications (improve AA capabilities)
-Valiant assault: not sure if it's working or been effective.
-Airborne assault: legend says there was supposed to be an AT strafe
-Sturmoffizier: give it scaling veterancy
-Emergency repairs: i don't want superglue 2.0 but give some love
-Panzer commander: talking about spreading the love
-ST: start by removing the bs crits. -1 damage would make wonders.
-LeFH: give it proper veterancy, specially at vet4-5
-Zeroing: improve it or reduce muni cost from 300 to 200
-Hetzer: yeah, there is a flamer hetzer in the game
-Forward receivers: once all trucks are deployed, give radio intercept
-Sector assault: it's bad. Give greater than three

The best solution to fix Okw is:
- Maxims reduce from 6 to 4 units and slightly increase the set-up time.
- Reduce damage from heavy mortar.
- Remove the USF mortar
- remove double weapons from USF Infantrie
- Reduce Peanels Dmg
done

You are correct. They suffer against suppression platforms.

If Vickers were performing like an MG42, OKW would also have issue vs Vickers. 50cal comes too late, and USF doesn't really need force multipliers to win the AI fight.

Doesn't this imply that it is the Soviet maxim that might warrant a look at then?

What if maxims acted like vickers in terms of suppression? Vickers love to get kills, but they don't lock units into place like nobodies business.

Off the top of my head, I'd say key changes that would benefit OKW without breaking things further are:

Volks incendiary nades t0 side tech. 100m 10-20f. Allows quick response to garrisoning without having to invest all the way into the next tech.
T0 MG34, no truck needed.
ISG smoke barrage.
Reduction of medic and repair side tech costs by accommodating the costs into things like truck setup costs or forward retreat point upgrade. (Side tech of Flak gun to unlock panther seems quite feasible.)

The more extreme option is to move Obers to medic truck, give them a (double) panzerschreck upgrade. Reduce cost to 340-360. LMG34 becomes upgrade unlocked with flak truck. The lazyman's idea is to throw OKW a clone of Stormtroopers somewhere before the time Obers currently hit the field.
This idea frees up Sturmpios from having panzerschrecks and gives them the options for something like smoke grenades, which is entirely appropriate for the squad. And THAT could unlock when a truck sets up.

Doesn't this imply that it is the Soviet maxim that might warrant a look at then?

What if maxims acted like vickers in terms of suppression? Vickers love to get kills, but they don't lock units into place like nobodies business.

Vickers just doesn't even work past 8-or-so minutes into the game. You might as well trade it for an MG34, because even the MG34 outperforms Vickers by that stage. That's due to:
- Craters, craters everywhere
- Complete lack of suppression scaling for the Vickers
- Infantry scaling means that Vickers isn't good even in the infantry-killing department anymore

A narrow-arc Maxim that is completely unable to suppress units, means that the Maxim will become completely dodgeable by just about any infantry unit in the game.

Great thread this.

On the smoke suggestions, wouldnt it be kooler if the kubel had the smoke ability instead of the ISG? That would prevent it from being killed easy but it would also be able to smoke for units who want to close in on garrisons. And if the kubel has the smoke you are not forced to get med to get smoke.

Vickers just doesn't even work past 8-or-so minutes into the game. You might as well trade it for an MG34, because even the MG34 outperforms Vickers by that stage. That's due to:
- Craters, craters everywhere
- Complete lack of suppression scaling for the Vickers
- Infantry scaling means that Vickers isn't good even in the infantry-killing department anymore

A narrow-arc Maxim that is completely unable to suppress units, means that the Maxim will become completely dodgeable by just about any infantry unit in the game.

The maxim doesn't work past minute 8 either. They're used as cannon fodder until 2CPs because it's more cost effective than any other Soviet unit, not to mention they're able to lock down the first 3 or 4 units their opponent sends out. Vickers are more or less used the same way: throw at a crucial point until the light vehicles come. The difference there is the British Faction != Soviets.

Maxims could have their old spin rate with a vickers level suppression.

Great thread this.

On the smoke suggestions, wouldnt it be kooler if the kubel had the smoke ability instead of the ISG? That would prevent it from being killed easy but it would also be able to smoke for units who want to close in on garrisons. And if the kubel has the smoke you are not forced to get med to get smoke.

This is a very interesting suggestion that I haven't heard of yet. What kind of smoke though? Panzer tactitcian or like Shermans? Former would imply that the Kubel needs to put itself in danger to smoke, but once the smoke is deployed it would escape and needed to be repaired.

Volks incendiary nades t0 side tech. 100m 10-20f. Allows quick response to garrisoning without having to invest all the way into the next tech.
T0 MG34, no truck needed.
ISG smoke barrage.
Reduction of medic and repair side tech costs by accommodating the costs into things like truck setup costs or forward retreat point upgrade. (Side tech of Flak gun to unlock panther seems quite feasible.)

Those ideas are beyond being considerable for two reasons:

1.: The side tech would be entirely pointless, because every OKW player had to go for it anyway. No grenades on their main infantry? No easy access to an alternative? That's the reason why USF got their ridiculous mortar and why everyone wants to keep it in the game, despite it working against anything the faction was designed for, which in term makes it completely unbalanceable...

2.: The costs you want to redistribute to other things would be extremely pointless, because these things are already fucking expensive. Sure, that would make healing and repairing (which is kind of stupid on OKW anyway, if we compare repair speeds with, say Soviets or Ostheer) more accessible, but at the same time nobody would ever again go for the retreat point, because it is on the verge of being unobtainable in anything but 4v4 already. At the same time, the cheaper USF tech gets their retreat point for free by the way, combined with cheaper healing. Something doesn't add up here.


If you want to lock things behind side techs, the teching itself has to become cheaper - that's the reasoning behind Brit teching being so bloody cheap. Alas, that adjustment never properly took place when it came to OKW and their healing (yes, there was an adjustment, but we can easily see now that it wasn't even close to being enough).
This actually serves as a pretty good point to demonstrate the main problem with the game's mechanical design: Inconsistency of rules. Be it the Cromwell having a lower moving penalty than its equivalents without having the weaknesses of the Sherman (which justify the Sherman having that lower penalty in the first place), or be it the StuG E still working with the call-in meta that was supposedly fixed over a year ago...

Vickers just doesn't even work past 8-or-so minutes into the game. You might as well trade it for an MG34, because even the MG34 outperforms Vickers by that stage. That's due to:
- Craters, craters everywhere
- Complete lack of suppression scaling for the Vickers
- Infantry scaling means that Vickers isn't good even in the infantry-killing department anymore

A narrow-arc Maxim that is completely unable to suppress units, means that the Maxim will become completely dodgeable by just about any infantry unit in the game.

i think that is fine though... suppression wise. think it is interesting for vickers to ABSOLUTELY need a garrison or spotter unit to work effectively after early game.

I'm scared of this thread. Last time I saw long lasting "okw fix" thread, bad things happened.

I'm scared of this thread. Last time I saw long lasting "okw fix" thread, bad things happened.

"Things can't possibly get any worse now, can they?"

"Things can't possibly get any worse now, can they?"

Sorry for the pessimism but imo, yes, they can. In my experience relic devs really don't like to revoke any changes they once made and this is the only realistic (cheap) way of returning OKW its old depth than made the faction fun to play with and against.

As for the community, we are great at tracking and even repairing bugs, but in my experience all ballance and design changes were either aimed on copy/pasting or mirroring something between factions or shallowing the gameplay by making strong expensive units weaker and cheaper or weak, spammable units more expensive. Sadly, these suggestions usually mean the game is (sometimes) a little more ballanced, but hugely less interesting to play and watch, on all levels.