Obers arriving earlier

Now that Hetzer is also locked to Panzer Authorization the truck setup could be lowered to 20-40 fuel. That could be a decent timing.

Ober's timing coming too early is not really as issues as long as they remain less cost efficient than penals. Imo it is the other infantry that should be delayed not ober that should come earlier.

Hezter and ostwind should not require the T4 building to exist.

Their timing could be fixed with CP.

Either all call in tanks should require both CP and tech or the double requirement should be limited to only to Super heavies.

Ober's timing coming too early is not really as issues as long as they remain less cost efficient than penals. Imo it is the other infantry that should be delayed not ober that should come earlier.

Hezter and ostwind should not require the T4 building to exist.

Their timing could be fixed with CP.


Either all call in tanks should require both CP and tech or the double requirement should be limited to only to Super heavies.

I get your point but right now balance wise I think elite infantry is in a good spot. Now we have more Shocks,Storms, Pgrens and new builds with mixed army compositions. Delaying would require changes to timings, scaling and unit cost just to match the balance we have right now. Too much work if you ask me.

Also falls are arriving earlier now, and I'm sure we'll see adjustments to Paras, Commandos and Rangers if needed. That's the design choice the balance team made and it worked great so far.

I agree the timing for Hetzer and Ostwind isn't the best. But I haven't tested those units yet so I'm not really sure.

G43 PF are a good example of how alternative infatry should be designed, their main current problem is that even when upgraded they are the same power level with Penal.

Imo Penal had to buy their SVT also the game would be in far better place.

Obers become only cost efficient once upgunned.

That wouldn't work.
EFA have reduced early game by having to sacrifice capping power in order to built their tiers. OH received MG42, pio and mp boost to compensate.
If you reduce AI in Penals, you are just making the same mistake as when they made them 270mp units from 330/360mp (basically they were 6 man Grens with G43, just eclipsed by Guards at that time).

270mp Penals didn't see use, even if they had hoorah (?) and a flamer. And if you plan to adjust the tier or boost mp as other factions, you are either swapping the strat to sniper or boosting other builds instead.

Instead, there are 2 things you can do to SLOW down T1 Penal builds. Lock down satchel behind molotov upgrade and theme it as something anti garrison and PTRS upgrade behind AT nade and call it anti vehicle something.


Regarding Ober, they were made MP cost inefficient to make the LMG34 not cost 100/120 muni. They have always historically arrived too late and made them OP to compensate instead.

The new patch for Obers changes is interesting.

Though what I think I disagree with is locking the MG upgrade once you acquire them.

I dont see why they should really lock it.

What is the point of getting Obers if other infantry units are going to perform better anyways with their upgrades.

MG34 upgrade should be available at the same time as Obers are acquired.

Otherwise, what is the point?


Guess we will have to see but I doubt Obers will be a pick without their upgrade.

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+1

The new patch for Obers changes is interesting.

Though what I think I disagree with is locking the MG upgrade once you acquire them.

I dont see why they should really lock it.

What is the point of getting Obers if other infantry units are going to perform better anyways with their upgrades.

MG34 upgrade should be available at the same time as Obers are acquired.

Otherwise, what is the point?


Guess we will have to see but I doubt Obers will be a pick without their upgrade.

They're still somewhat okay without the upgrade and you can start on getting veterancy sooner. I'd rather have them sooner, even if I have to wait for the upgrade.

That wouldn't work.
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The game was in completely different state, the built at the time included heavy use of weapons teams , including maxim spam while currently people use brute infatry force.

Penal where not being used because maxim spam was allot easier.

If we accept that PF design is the correct one for alternative mainline infatry, the same rules should apply to Penals as alternative infatry. That start weak and upgrade. Else PF should be able to upgrade with g43 from start with no MU cost.

The point I making is that if expensive lethal infatry are available early the game become about first engagements. If one can stop that strong infatry (SP/Penal or what ever else) he win, if that infatry win first engagements the game start to snowballs with little chance of a comeback.

The pace of the game should be set by the stock mainline infatry.

The game was in completely different state, the built at the time included heavy use of weapons teams , including maxim spam while currently people use brute infatry force.

Penal where not being used because maxim spam was allot easier.

The point I making is that if expensive lethal infatry are available early the game become about first engagements. If one can stop that strong infatry (SP/Penal or what ever else) he win, if that infatry win first engagements the game start to snowballs with little chance of a comeback.

I guess Grenadier vs Conscript spam meta were consider weapon teams at that time. You are underestimating the time frame Penals remain useless. 6 months after release they were a meme unit to recrew weapons with and it took 3 years to finally rework them. We've seen maxim spam, conscript spam (with and without PPSH), double clowncar, double sniper, 3 conscript into maxims, Guard spam, double Shock, cheesy wiping Partisans, etc.
EVERY SINGLE UNIT, on BOTH OH and SU, saw use with the exception of Penals and Su76 before their reworks. 3 years. You can't blame game state to a failed concept. It's like developers blaming players for not liking their vision design and not wanting to pay and play their games.

Penals when they were 360mp saw no use because you don't have the mp to build them, on top of having to waste resources in both, the cost of T1 and time you waste with your CE.
Penals at 270mp didn't see use, because you would rather have your CE be in the front and build 2 conscripts from the get go.

Penals will never be a thing, if they are made equally to PFs, Volks or slightly stronger Conscripts.
It's not hard to grasp the concept that SU starts with less man power and have to spend time and resources to build their tiers if they don't want to open up with conscripts.

If we accept that PF design is the correct one for alternative mainline infatry, the same rules should apply to Penals as alternative infatry. That start weak and upgrade. Else PF should be able to upgrade with g43 from start with no MU cost.

Would you build PF if you had to build a SwS truck first before been able to deploy them? That's why the concept is doomed from the start.
For PF to be equal to Penals, the moment you pick the commander you lose 80mp. SP are bound to the base till the SwS is built. And then you spend an extra 60mp to unlock PF. They now arrive as 6 man PF with 6 G43 which just mimic SVTs.

The pace of the game should be set by the stock mainline infatry.

That ended the moment main line infantry cost stopped being 240mp.

Though what I think I disagree with is locking the MG upgrade once you acquire them.

I dont see why they should really lock it.

Well, obviously because the IR STG44 and LMG 34 upgrades are way too powerful to unleash as early as ~6-7 minutes into the game (easily achieved with team games resource inflation).

Otherwise, what is the point?

Fitting them into your build easier, and getting them early when enemy infantry isn't fully vetted and upgraded yet and tanks aren't roaming the battlefield already so they can start working towards their crucial vet 2 as soon as possible. If used from behind heavy cover, stock Obers should quite easily win vs most Allied infantry at that time.

Well, obviously because the IR STG44 and LMG 34 upgrades are way too powerful to unleash as early as ~6-7 minutes into the game (easily achieved with team games resource inflation).



Fitting them into your build easier, and getting them early when enemy infantry isn't fully vetted and upgraded yet so they can start working towards their crucial vet 2 as soon as possible. If used from behind heavy cover, stock Obers should quite easily win vs all Allied infantry at that time.

Maybe you are right.

Anyway the changes the Devs made All in all is a step towards improvements. That is really good and important. Good work.

Lets see how it is when it is released.



Does anyone know by the way when it is definitely going to be released?

Hopefully they will release it by this weekend. It would be great since they have stated that it was their last mod preview for the September patch.

Obers are also more expensive than Penal and have more pop. At 340 manpower they are UP for cost compared to Penals, according to the stat you have provided.

I'd compare them to Tommies, against which they are adequately more powerful and more expensive.

Obers become only cost efficient once upgunned.

That's true, but we can't ignore their history of balancing and why they ended up where they are now.
They were supposed to be cost efficient -ONLY- once upgraded.
LMG became an upgrade to allow for stock price manpower to go down, it was basically shifting the cost from manpower to muni.

Volks are being adressed in the patch, so i leave them out of this discussion.

10mp increase is not "being addressed" its a joke is what it is. All of a second of manpower generation and up to 40mp more expensive for a standard build.... The maxim got a large cost increase ontop of its 3 other nerfs last time it was neutered so no volks isn't being addressed and omnio potent all role infantry needs to be taken into account when figuring out how to fit the elite infantry the aforementioned volks make not seem worth it to work.
Obers are a bonus if you can afford it, otherwise volks will more than make up for it by being able to build and deny cover and punish the enemy for closing and be on deck to blow an engine.

Obersoldaten are just another get out of jail free card for OKW right along with their King Tiger so I don't know why anyone thinks it would be even close to balanced having them available immediately. You don't like using Volks all the time? I guess you've never used Riflemen or played USF then. Tommies will probably be Riflemen 2.0 after the next patch.

I'd compare them to Tommies, against which they are adequately more powerful and more expensive.

feel free to compare what you like and if you do not like the penal ober comparison take it up with sanders who made it.
Obers with lmg upgrade are simply UP.

That's true, but we can't ignore their history of balancing and why they ended up where they are now.
They were supposed to be cost efficient -ONLY- once upgraded.
LMG became an upgrade to allow for stock price manpower to go down, it was basically shifting the cost from manpower to muni.

And I did not say that was a problem in anyway. On the contrary I said that Penal should start at lower power level and have weapon upgrade similar to Obers and G43 PF.

PLS do not quote me if what you are going to reply is irrelevant to my post you have quote from.

I guess Grenadier vs Conscript spam meta were consider weapon teams at that time. You are underestimating the time frame Penals remain useless. 6 months after release they were a meme unit to recrew weapons with and it took 3 years to finally rework them. We've seen maxim spam, conscript spam (with and without PPSH), double clowncar, double sniper, 3 conscript into maxims, Guard spam, double Shock, cheesy wiping Partisans, etc.
EVERY SINGLE UNIT, on BOTH OH and SU, saw use with the exception of Penals and Su76 before their reworks. 3 years. You can't blame game state to a failed concept. It's like developers blaming players for not liking their vision design and not wanting to pay and play their games.

Imo you are simply underestimating the flamer Penals, you can test them in my MOD and you probably see how powerful they actually are. Combat wise they are more powerful than Assault engineers while costing less manpower.

The fact that they did not see much use mean little about their state. Many units did not see use and they anything but UP.

Penals when they were 360mp saw no use because you don't have the mp to build them, on top of having to waste resources in both, the cost of T1 and time you waste with your CE.
Penals at 270mp didn't see use, because you would rather have your CE be in the front and build 2 conscripts from the get go.

360 mp Penal are ancient history an irrelevant. Flamer Penal where not great before the flamer buff and people probably did not understand their potential after the flamer buff.

Penals will never be a thing, if they are made equally to PFs, Volks or slightly stronger Conscripts.
It's not hard to grasp the concept that SU starts with less man power and have to spend time and resources to build their tiers if they don't want to open up with conscripts.

I doubt there many ways to make penal work without being balanced around being OP but outnumbered. Which does not really balance them out modes above 1vs1.

Would you build PF if you had to build a SwS truck first before been able to deploy them? That's why the concept is doomed from the start.

If they come at penal power level and required truck being built and not set up, easily.

For PF to be equal to Penals, the moment you pick the commander you lose 80mp. SP are bound to the base till the SwS is built. And then you spend an extra 60mp to unlock PF. They now arrive as 6 man PF with 6 G43 which just mimic SVTs.

Again the point is not for PF to come with G43 but for penals to have the same tempo as other infatry and to have to buy the extra firepower.

That ended the moment main line infantry cost stopped being 240mp.

Not really. That ended when for no good reason powerful infatry become easier and earlier accessible and the trends continues.

Imo you are simply underestimating the flamer Penals, you can test them in my MOD and you probably see how powerful they actually are. The fact that they did not see much use mean little about their state. Many units did not see use and they anything but UP

360 mp Penal are ancient history an irrelevant. Flamer Penal where not great before the flamer buff and people probably did not understand their potential after the flamer buff.

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3 years. Multiple tournaments. 1v1, 2v2 and the occasional organized 4v4 games. Several pro players who are still here and some who are gone. Veteran vcoh player and the ocassional high ranked developer. Yeah, no one understand the unit.
It's not Dhska, it's hard to incorporate into a building cause you need late game tank commander to be meta, secret OP. It was meme tier Hetzer unit level.

I doubt there many ways to make penal work without being balanced around being OP but outnumbered. Which does not really balance them out modes above 1vs1.

And that also applies to many other units, with the difference that Penals are not as great into the mid-late game, which on teamgames, arrives way faster because people can actually skip tiers and key units.

If they come at penal power level and required truck being built and not set up, easily.
Again the point is not for PF to come with G43 but for penals to have the same tempo as other infatry and to have to buy the extra firepower.

I see you purposely skip the fact that the initial mp, building time and tier investment are what keeps the unit in check.
Asking for same treatment on PF as Penals, is asking for the same drawbacks the unit have.

The tempo IS the building time, the mp disposal and the map control. I'm not opposed to mid-game further investment so they have to pay to unlock both satchel/PTRS. Reducing the difference in mp effectiveness with Conscript/maxim builds while slowing them down towards the T70.

Not really. That ended when for no good reason powerful infatry become easier and earlier accessible and the trends continues.

USF, OKW says hi. Then UKF to join the mix. All factions design around spamming infantry to overpower the lack of early options in support weapons. WFA set the tempo to be faster, once they managed to slow it down just a couple of months before their release.

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And that also applies to many other units, with the difference that Penals are not as great into the mid-late game, which on teamgames, arrives way faster because people can actually skip tiers and key units.

just so u know, upgraded pfusi and penal have similar dps, and almost same vet bonus, and people consider pfusi quote: "THE BEST SCALING INF IN THE GAME"

so they fall of cause ?

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3 years. Multiple tournaments. 1v1, 2v2 and the occasional organized 4v4 games. Several pro players who are still here and some who are gone. Veteran vcoh player and the ocassional high ranked developer. Yeah, no one understand the unit.
It's not Dhska, it's hard to incorporate into a building cause you need late game tank commander to be meta, secret OP. It was meme tier Hetzer unit level.

The game is completely different after 3 years of patches. Once more simply test them in my MOD.

And that also applies to many other units, with the difference that Penals are not as great into the mid-late game, which on teamgames, arrives way faster because people can actually skip tiers and key units.

That makes the unit badly design which is my original point.

I see you purposely skip the fact that the initial mp, building time and tier investment are what keeps the unit in check.
Asking for same treatment on PF as Penals, is asking for the same drawbacks the unit have.

I did not skip any facts because there are no fact, you asked my a hypothetical question and my answer is that I would use PF if they come after SWS being built (which is later than T1) costed 300 had the same built time as Penal and come with g43.

I can make a MOD is you would like to test actually test them.

Again my point that MOD team has decided to make PF an alternative mainline infatry and they choose weapon upgrade to achieved it. They should apply the same design to Penal who are an alternative mainline infatry.

The tempo IS the building time, the mp disposal and the map control.
I'm not opposed to mid-game further investment so they have to pay to unlock both satchel/PTRS. Reducing the difference in mp effectiveness with Conscript/maxim builds while slowing them down towards the T70.

Glad that we agree.

USF, OKW says hi. Then UKF to join the mix. All factions design around spamming infantry to overpower the lack of early options in support weapons. WFA set the tempo to be faster, once they managed to slow it down just a couple of months before their release.

That was problematic only at release and was quickly fixed. Any problem had do with faction design and cheesy and not early small arm balance which has change little. Basic stat of Grens, Riflemen VG has seen little changes.

just so u know, upgraded pfusi and penal have similar dps, and almost same vet bonus, and people consider pfusi quote: "THE BEST SCALING INF IN THE GAME"

so they fall of cause ?

Fussies have 5 levels ov vet, team weaponsupport and forward heals always available which makes a difference. If fussies were copy and pasted penals they would still scale better because by design the faction scales better.

just so u know, upgraded pfusi and penal have similar dps, and almost same vet bonus, and people consider pfusi quote: "THE BEST SCALING INF IN THE GAME"

so they fall of cause ?

Weapon upgrades and DPS concentration. If you lose them, you don't want to replace them with another Penal vet 0.
PTRS late game are only there for the AT satchel. Reinforce/capping wise, you would rather have a Conscript.

Best scaling infantry are Rifles followed by IS. That doesn't mean you can always make it to that point.