Grenadiers are really fucking good, and with the newly buffed G43 they will be good anywhere
They are good but far from "the best".
Posts: 556
Grenadiers are really fucking good, and with the newly buffed G43 they will be good anywhere
Posts: 1660
I'd like to see a return of the 5 man G43 grens, although I understand why they changed it. Maybe instead of the special VSL G43 with insane retreating wipe potential they could just give him a regular G43.
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While I agree that volks are the weakest, there's no way grens are the strongest. Rifles are superior, tommies are slightly better, and cons are superior too once they get 7 men
You could maybe say tommies are "weaker" because of no snare. But in terms of raw anti-infantry power definitely not
Posts: 213
Grens are well-rounded. Rifles only win from grens at short range. Tommies only win from grens when in cover and at long range. In any other situation grens win and are more flexible. and of course the ostheer has access to tools to defeat both situations in tier 1
Posts: 163
Since when is range 25 short and 13 long range? You overestimate vet0 Grens without lmg. Anyway Ost has the best support roster with mg42, 222, 251, pak40, t0 snare and teller. So Grens dont have to be the strongest squad, while being cheap. And they scale quite well.
5Man Grens are fine. They are stronger Volks with better snare, healing, better nade and really good scaling. Sure they bleed more than lmg Grens, but on some maps where lmg dont work very well they can be a solid alternative.
Posts: 1660
5Man Grens are fine.
They are stronger Volks with better snare, healing, better nade and really good scaling.
Sure they bleed more than lmg Grens, but on some maps where lmg dont work very well they can be a solid alternative.
Posts: 213
Pray tell what maps lmg grens are worse than vsl and elighten this poor peasant.
Posts: 1660
Old 5Man Grens were completely broken. And now where they have 10% more recieved acc they are bad? How do you wanna make them balanced when the stock upgrade is that good?
You cant reduce the reinforce cost without changing stock Grens. And even if (!) 5Man Grens are underwhelming, how do you wanna buff them without breaking balance again?
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They don't have any RA bonus, that was removed when their G43 was replaced with Volksgrenadiers Kekgewehr version
Posts: 1660
Yeah they went from 0,82 to the basic 0,91 rec acc.
And Sander already proved that the VSL Stg is no downgrade compared to the VSL g43. The only nerf there was the oneshot model potential. That was a fair nerf. Even Sections lost that a couple of patches ago.
Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6
The fact is that VSL are undeniably a poor choice and can be seen by durectly comparing it with mg42 grenadiers
Posts: 1563
We held a vote to get the opinion of the top players.
89% voted that the current version of VSL Grens is doing fine.
They are just no longer a no brainer choice.
Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3
We held a vote to get the opinion of the top players.
89% voted that the current version of VSL Grens is doing fine.
Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6
Posts: 5279
But is there any reason to pick vsl over lmgs now???? Don't get me wrong, my entire point was that lmg's are always better. They allow you to fight even with upgraded allied infantry late game and since you don't need to close in you don't take as much damage. VSL upgrade doesn't do all that well. They can't beat Penals at any range, they loose to 4 man section behind cover and bar upgraded rifle who cost pretty much the same (280+60 to vsl grens 268+60)dominate them at all ranges. They are not use full at combat over the lmg one and they even take more damage because any other squad than rifles and cons(pretty much out dps them at all ranges).
I suggest allowing them to upgrade to lmg 42 after t4 has been teched. Or if that is to much lower the upgrade cost to 50 and reduce reinforce cost by 3.
Posts: 1660
You pick 5 man grens so your grens have 5 men. You pick lmg for reliable DPS.
Its literally a choice as old as choice in games. Damage vs durability.
upgrades that overshadow others are poorly designed upgrades.
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That's not how it works. Durability and dps go hand in hand, the lmg grenadiers losing 2 models means still having most its dps, while the dps of 4 men grenadiers drops drastically with 2 models lost. As the dps drops, the enemy retains much better dps, so your durability is is actually lower.
Posts: 1660
I did not get your second part, but from the first one you exactly describe how 5 men Grens are intended and what thedarkarmadillo described: LMG Grens are damage dealers, 5 men Grens offer superior survivability (and more close and moving DPS)
Posts: 479
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When fighting against other infantry survivability depends on the ability to handicap enemy dps capabilities. We can create any situation and engagement against infantry and we'll see how having a single model with an mg42 allows mg42 grenadoers to be better because that mg retains its dps, so that survivability is just apparent as damage is dealt and entities drop. This is why squads that have a dps distribution that is more even between all squad members are less elite and generally cost less to reinforce. VSL is not a bolster infantry where you simply add a squad member. You trade that better dps upgrade with the extra squad member, but the squad itself will always perform worse in any situation, so there's no use for that survivability. This may be my opinion and probably it's not popular, but the overall value of the squad goes down, and so should the cost to reinforce it. The moment VSL drop 2 models their dps is greatly impacted, while this is far from true for lmg grenadiers, and dps retention causes the enemy to drop models himself, meaning it will be able to deal less damage overtime than it would while fighting with VSL grens
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