[Winter Balance Update] SOV Feedback

Can you hold attack from two fronts? From thouse who think they are OP and thouse who think they are UP

The ones who think its up are extremely easy to fend off as for the ammo invested you get what you paid for, which is performance comparable to 1 shreck/1 elite zook. It does give you a fighting chance, but alone you aren't going to hunt anything above luchs.

The one with rage boner against penals is literally unstoppable, because you can't prove wrong someone who thinks he's always right regardless of who or how many people tell him otherwise as proven by every single discussion everyone with different opinion engaged with.

Bazookas and Panzerschrecks require quite a lot of RNG to deal full damage though. At higher ranges Bazookas often miss or they don't pen, Panzerschrecks often miss. The PTRS always hits. As these small tests seem to indicate, now their DPM isn't far behind the average DPM of the others, or at least their higher effective hitpoints makes up for DPM, as long as the others don't get lucky RNG.


TLDR, the original argument was that they wouldn't be able to fight mediums at all. This is not true anymore, they can be quite a threat now. Not far behind other AT infantry.

That completely depends on what metrics you are using.
As said, if the enemy literally sits their tank and walks away, the ptrs is a fine weapon, which works fine for their role as defensive AT. this I've said since ptrs penals were released. I have no issue with their role or how they fill it, but it IS a different role than other hand AT whom can hunt tanks.

Again, I agree with the application of ptrs on penals but dpm is irrelevant in any scenario other than the one they are trying to fill.

PTRS just got their ready aim time massively reduced so that's no longer the case. They will be good at chasing vehicles too now, as well as having good alpha damage (at least versus lights). PTRS has more range too (40 vs 35) so they'll be harder to kite or run away from than other AT infantry. They can't be pushed around when engaging a vehicle in the open. And with 3 PTRS now they can have similar DPM to Bazookas or Panzerschecks unless the latter get pretty lucky RNG (pens for Bazookas and hits for Panzerschrecks).

Indeed but it still feels clunky to use. After testing several units head on i'm a bit more surprised about their performance, even if it's inferior to others as i expected it to do much worst. I think the issue is that it feels like "invisible" dmg compared to the other AT infantry which have rocket with them.

While the amount of cases is small (just 3 with each) i think this give a rough sense of what i saw.

-Panther at full HP starts with engine dmg and backpedals till the middle of the map (blue line on the test range).
-Infantry starts at 1st line of wires. PV starts at 2nd line of wires and changes faction at the 3rd.
-Units chase till the PV touches the line upon which they still fire if they are in range.
-They all started at vet 3 and there's patches of light cover





Notes:
-Each color marks at which point the PV dies. In case of Penals you can see how much HP left the PV had.
-This is not perfect micro as sometimes i stopped and have to right click again to move immediately cause i miss time their reload.
-For Rangers, they had 3 Zooks.
-I had to repeat a RET test cause the first 2 shots of the PV somehow connected on the models. RNGesus.
-Surprising the heavy variance i had with the PIAT. Somehow the first test was the best (basically no practice on timing) with almost all shots penning at the beginning. They were not 5 men Sappers cause i used the other version of the mod and didn't had a way to spawn a UKF HQ.

.....

Was this 2 zooks on the RET's, 2 shreks, 2 piats? The rangers looked like they did a lot better, but if it was 3 vs 2 then they really didn't do very different than RET's.

Was this 2 zooks on the RET's, 2 shreks, 2 piats? The rangers looked like they did a lot better, but if it was 3 vs 2 then they really didn't do very different than RET's.

2 on everything, 3 PTRS, 3 Zook on rangers. I didn't think it was worth testing 2 Elite Zook on Paras.

Not sure how you see them doing similarly when they had the most reliable and best performance overall. Maybe you refer for cost and that would be correct. But zooks on RET ha a high variance on dmg, as they often failed to pen and they barely survived all the incoming damage.

Not sure if i perfectly aligned them in front of the PV so they get hit by all MGs with 100% uptime.

2 on everything, 3 PTRS, 3 Zook on rangers. I didn't think it was worth testing 2 Elite Zook on Paras.

Not sure how you see them doing similarly when they had the most reliable and best performance overall. Maybe you refer for cost and that would be correct. But zooks on RET ha a high variance on dmg, as they often failed to pen and they barely survived all the incoming damage.

Not sure if i perfectly aligned them in front of the PV so they get hit by all MGs with 100% uptime.

TDL penals with 3 PTRSs which cost rufly the same as 1 zook\schreck\piat are able to take more then half of the HP PV.

Would be actually funny to see, how they pefrom compared to 1 schreck\zook\piat

TDL penals with 3 PTRSs which cost rufly the same as 1 zook\schreck\piat are able to take more then half of the HP PV.

Would be actually funny to see, how they pefrom compared to 1 schreck\zook\piat

Note that this was chasing a PV with engine dmg, without MG upgrade nor vet after around 200 range. If you want to have some reference, that's almost the distance between 2 base sectors on 1v1 maps (IIRC it's more or less 250 on avg).

At first i thought about a more realistic 60/100 range test but it would had lead to greater variance in performance (even more so than now) and it would be harder to read the results as well.

Did you use the same technique that you used for rockets when PTRS where reloading?

The AT Paras/AT PG/AT PF/AT ST/AT SP do not have snares at all. With the recent buff there is not reason for Penal to have snare (especially 1 shot ones) either.

That has a couple flaws in the reasoning due to what environment Penals exist in compared to those other units.
1. Penals lack numbers. It's common to only get 3 penals due to their cost and trying to get a 4th is so expensive it isn't really an option. You could get a conscript squad but if you want snares with them it's even more expensive than a 4th penal. So in the end you end up with in general 2 AI penals, a conscript squad, and the PTRS penal. This essentially means you have 2 frontline fighting squads and an AT squad.
This is in stark contrast to the examples given who all get at least 3 main line combat squads on top of the AT unit. For example with PzGrens you're already gonna have 3 grens/ostruppen/assgrens to keep battling infantry even if the PzGrens get the AT tools. This is true for the majority of the units listed outside of possibly the PzFus. The PzFus get away with it since it's very common for OKW to get 4 infantry squads starting off so they can get shrecks and still have 3 mainline infantry.
If you want a more fair comparison for Penals and what giving them PTRS are like, it's similar to having 3 Rifleman and giving one of them zooks or 3 IS and giving one of them Piats.

2. Penals don't have AT support. All of those examples have the option to also back up their infantry AT with an AT gun. This does not exist for penals without a massive investment to backtech for the zis or the use of commanders with the 45mm. Seemingly Penals shouldn't need to only exist with commanders that have the 45mm right? Well even with the buffs it's still largely going to be that as you can't just have a PTRS squad carry your entire AT capacity until late game. If you tried to use just a single squad of PzGrens with shrecks and use them to carry AT until a Pz4 it wouldn't go very well. Those other examples exist in a position where they have other means to stop armor and so the AT infantry is complementary. Penals don't have this luxury.

3. Other AT infantry have support to snare. Even if the AT infantry itself doesn't have a snare you often have 3ish squads that do have a snare to use together with the AT infantry to help kill vehicles. Penals get the single AT squad with a snare and to get a second snare have to get a conscripts and then get the grenade package which does currently nothing for the Penals themselves. In total that second snare comes out to 390 manpower and 15 fuel just so penals can have a snare. Compare this to like Riflemen which just have a snare after naturally teching up or things like Grens who literally just have a snare right from the start.

These 3 points in conjunction should show why Penals do need better AT capacity than their peers as they lack a lot of the tools those other examples have to support them. Imo making the AT satchel something any penal could get and lowering the damage to not one shot things would be a big improvement for them. It would give the Penals more of an actual chance to scare off enemy vehicles and keep them from diving/walking over the penals when the PTRS ones aren't around. The surrounding events of soviets going T1 just make it so Penals need stuff like a snare while also being able to get AT because they have so few tools otherwise.

2 on everything, 3 PTRS, 3 Zook on rangers. I didn't think it was worth testing 2 Elite Zook on Paras.

Not sure how you see them doing similarly when they had the most reliable and best performance overall. Maybe you refer for cost and that would be correct. But zooks on RET ha a high variance on dmg, as they often failed to pen and they barely survived all the incoming damage.

Not sure if i perfectly aligned them in front of the PV so they get hit by all MGs with 100% uptime.

I was normalizing on cost. There was 150 muni's of zooks on the rangers, versus 120 in shreks, 100 in piats or zooks on RE's. The 150 barely outperformed the 120, and was about 50% better than the standard zooks on RE's.

The balance team should consider giving PTRS penals the same type of camo and AT nades that tank hunter Cons get. They're just going to get shredded otherwise.

The balance team should consider giving PTRS penals the same type of camo and AT nades that tank hunter Cons get. They're just going to get shredded otherwise.

How does tank hunter camoflage work? I'm not sure what to think of Penals that could AT satchel tanks in camoflage.

How does tank hunter camoflage work? I'm not sure what to think of Penals that could AT satchel tanks in camoflage.

I assume this would mean satchels would get replaced by the AT nade volley, not kept at the same time. But I think this is a silly idea, there is no reason to turn two unique units into one.

Did you use the same technique that you used for rockets when PTRS where reloading?

When the PV is changed from faction all models immediately shoot, then you just keep chasing and right clicking the PV and waiting for all AT models to shoot to avoid having different timings in reload/cd time. If you stop too soon, you keep chasing down a bit and try again. It's easier to identify the animation of the rockets, specially shreck. Piat/PTRS you don't really have a visual queue.

I assume this would mean satchels would get replaced by the AT nade volley, not kept at the same time. But I think this is a silly idea, there is no reason to turn two unique units into one.

The satchels would get replaced by the AT nade volley. The range on the satchels is too low to be usable against anything but a computer. Call the idea sill if you need to, but the proposed unit is still not going to be good for competitive play.

Also, as FunPolice pointed out, you typically can't afford more than 3 penals, so turning one of them into a PTRS penal really hurts late game.

Alternatively, if they could stow the PTRS and go back to their normal weapons then the upgrade would be worthwhile. It would need to work like the minesweeper on Sturmpios.

meh

That has a couple flaws in the reasoning due to what environment Penals exist in compared to those other units.
1. Penals lack numbers. Show Spoiler

On the contrary Penal have more number (3) you said than AT Paras/AT PG/AT PF/AT ST/AT SP who one will probably have 1 or 2

2. Penals don't have AT support. Show Spoiler

.

Yes they do have AT support.

They do not need AT support vs lights and by the mediums are build can have from ATG to SU-76.

3. Other AT infantry have support to snare. Show Spoiler

They can also easily have snare support from conscripts AT grenade, to "button", to mines and Ram

These 3 points in conjunction should show why Penals do need better AT capacity than their peers as they lack a lot of the tools those other examples have to support them. Show Spoiler

You are presuming that Penal should be able to operate alone which is actually bad design. If that was the case Soviet strategy would revolve around creating a Penal blob and run around counter both infatry and vehicles with it. That is simply bad design.

Hand AT, with the exception of PTRS are about burst damage. The DPM on the penals might be the same as other AT but a misstep in front of pgrens or fussies mean 240 damage off your tank, penals are half that.

If course soviet AT infantry fill a slightly different role. Their being a ward as opposed to something to hunt and the 3rd PTRS will make that meaningful. But their job is to protect their vulnerable casemate AT. Not hunt enemies. so the different application of damage in combination of the snare is acceptable.

This, the Panzerschreck is the Tank Terror, but the PTRS is more like the Tank Jabber. The Panzerschreck will force a tank to immediately reconsider it's position on the battlefield, but a PTRS squad can only discourage you, merely a suggestion that charging in could be a bad idea.

It doesn't have the alpha-strike damage of Panzerschrecks that alongside AT Guns and Tanks will rapidly shorten the lifespan of your unit, but it can prevent you from charging forward by threatening you with a satchel charge, and the chip damage will slowly make your position less desirable.

When the PV is changed from faction all models immediately shoot, then you just keep chasing and right clicking the PV and waiting for all AT models to shoot to avoid having different timings in reload/cd time. If you stop too soon, you keep chasing down a bit and try again. It's easier to identify the animation of the rockets, specially shreck. Piat/PTRS you don't really have a visual queue.

It easier to indemnify the animation of rockets

PTRS have a visual queue one can see the the entity changing magazine, it is harder to spot but it there. Or one can simply counter the shots there fire 6. One can even move after each shot since the CD is around 2 secs.

Piat do have a visual queue for reloading.

On the contrary Penal have more number (3) you said than AT Paras/AT PG/AT PF/AT ST/AT SP who one will probably have 1 or 2.


They can also easily have snare support from conscripts AT grenade, to "button", to mines and Ram


You are presuming that Penal should be able to operate alone which is actually bad design. If that was the case Soviet strategy would revolve around creating a Penal blob and run around counter both infatry and vehicles with it. That is simply bad design.

You're missing the point. All those other squads come alongside 3 mainline infantry. So like 3 Grens and 1 PzGren or 3 Riflemen and 1 Para. Penals often end up 2 normal Penals and the 1 PTRS Penal. They often have 1 less squad to fight with comapared to the other AT squads because you turn a frontline infantry into that AT unit. Imagine putting 2 zooks on a riflemen squad, 2 piats on a IS, or even imgaine having to put 2 shrecks on your Grens. That's the same thing penals deal with atm.

Yes they do have AT support.

They do not need AT support vs lights and by the mediums are build can have from ATG to SU-76.

So penals have to skip the T70 and pay an extra 15 fuel to get their 1st AT gun which in turn slows down their tech to T4 even more? Like honestly the SU76 shouldn't even be considered because of how badly it messes with the Soviet midgame and even ignoring that there isn't exactly much to stop a Pz4 or whatever from diving the SU76 and killing it. You essentially gotta have the PTRS penal squad glued to it in order to prevent a dice. It's just so bad.

They can also easily have snare support from conscripts AT grenade, to "button", to mines and Ram


You are presuming that Penal should be able to operate alone which is actually bad design. If that was the case Soviet strategy would revolve around creating a Penal blob and run around counter both infatry and vehicles with it. That is simply bad design.

As I already stated that conscript squad with AT is stupidly expensive since you 390 manpower and 15 fuel (which is even worse if your also planning on paying for 75 fuel for the SU76). And if you go for more than 1 conscript then is there even really a point to go Penals?
If penals aren't allowed to be flexible and have a snare than give them more actual AT and the tools to better deal with vehicles. Right now they rely entirely on a single PTRS squad to handle their AT until T4. It just isn't enough and the only way they can currently fix that is either ungodly expensive to get or is doctrinal. Otherwise just let penals be able to get a snare without tying it to the PTRS so they can have a better chance to keep vehicles from having a field day. Locking it behind a 150 manpower and 15 fuel tech should be a big enough cost seeing how expensive penals already are.

You're missing the point.Show Spoiler

Actually you are missing. A blob with a single unit type that has both AI and AT is worse than blob of different type of units.

That is the reason VGs lost their shrecks.

There no reason to allow Penals to operate on the own and counter both infatry and vehicles.

The idea that a mainline infatry should dominate all enemy infatry of it time, blow things up then shut down light vehicles and help vs mediums is simply bad design.

Current T1 design is bad and expecting Penals to pull all the weight of the flawed design is an even solution.