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[Winter Balance Update] SOV Feedback

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29 Dec 2020, 16:19 PM
#981
avatar of über alles

Posts: 85

Soviet inf and support need a buff, and what I see in those patch are conscript nerf, what the hell

Early game is insanely in favor of the German as a soviet

This useless maxim needs so long to ping other infantery is crazy
29 Dec 2020, 18:53 PM
#982
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Dec 2020, 11:03 AMVipper

It easier to indemnify the animation of rockets

PTRS have a visual queue one can see the the entity changing magazine, it is harder to spot but it there. Or one can simply counter the shots there fire 6. One can even move after each shot since the CD is around 2 secs.

Piat do have a visual queue for reloading.


I wasn't clear enough. They don't have a CLEAR visual queue to use during a real game. I check after the test were done but that wouldn't be how you would ever play the game, specially trying to zoom in to see them better.

The way i did the test was also stretching it out, as i was basically microing a single unit while chasing for so long.
29 Dec 2020, 21:16 PM
#983
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Dec 2020, 16:05 PMVipper

Actually you are missing. A blob with a single unit type that has both AI and AT is worse than blob of different type of units.

That is the reason VGs lost their shrecks.

There no reason to allow Penals to operate on the own and counter both infatry and vehicles.

The idea that a mainline infatry should dominate all enemy infatry of it time, blow things up then shut down light vehicles and help vs mediums is simply bad design.

Current T1 design is bad and expecting Penals to pull all the weight of the flawed design is an even solution.


I do not believe that PTRS Penals "counter" anything stronger than Pioneers or Rear Echelon Troops. Their PTRS rifles have extremely low DPS, meaning it's just 3 SVT Rifles dealing any notable damage. Plus any time they lose a model, that SVT is gone, so at just 5 men they now have less DPS than fresh Osttruppen.
29 Dec 2020, 21:21 PM
#984
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2458 | Subs: 1


Early game is insanely in favor of the German as a soviet


Only really applies to Ostheer as they can just cheese Soviets endlessly in the early game. It's more fun/playable against OKW.

Unfortunately, I don't see how the new patch changes this.
29 Dec 2020, 21:32 PM
#985
avatar of KT610

Posts: 69

Any thoughts on giving Penals access to Dp-28s? I would be more willing to take Penals over cons if they got some anti-infantry upgrades as an alternative to PTRS.
29 Dec 2020, 22:49 PM
#986
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Dec 2020, 21:32 PMKT610
Any thoughts on giving Penals access to Dp-28s? I would be more willing to take Penals over cons if they got some anti-infantry upgrades as an alternative to PTRS.

Soviets have enough LMG units.
They may be doctrinal, but they don't need any stock ones.
29 Dec 2020, 23:54 PM
#987
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Dec 2020, 22:49 PMKatitof
Soviets have enough LMG units.
They may be doctrinal, but they don't need any stock ones.


They have 2. I'd like to see more because the DP was a common weapon, but I understand why it would break the synergy of Soviets = Close vs Germans = Long.
Pip
30 Dec 2020, 00:05 AM
#988
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1594



They have 2. I'd like to see more because the DP was a common weapon, but I understand why it would break the synergy of Soviets = Close vs Germans = Long.


"Ally Close/Axis Long" sort of went out the window when Brits were released. There's no need to strictly stick to that anymore.
30 Dec 2020, 00:35 AM
#989
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Dec 2020, 00:05 AMPip
"Ally Close/Axis Long" sort of went out the window when Brits were released. There's no need to strictly stick to that anymore.


I said Soviets.
30 Dec 2020, 00:36 AM
#990
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

Nothing complements an aggressive semi automatic rifle infantry with a hyper close range explosive and increased stats for every man lost like a long range, static weapon best suited for sitting in cover...
30 Dec 2020, 00:47 AM
#991
avatar of FunPolice

Posts: 133

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Dec 2020, 16:05 PMVipper

Actually you are missing. A blob with a single unit type that has both AI and AT is worse than blob of different type of units.

That is the reason VGs lost their shrecks.

There no reason to allow Penals to operate on the own and counter both infatry and vehicles.

The idea that a mainline infatry should dominate all enemy infatry of it time, blow things up then shut down light vehicles and help vs mediums is simply bad design.

Current T1 design is bad and expecting Penals to pull all the weight of the flawed design is an even solution.


So should we look to nerf riflemen because they can be AI and AT in a blob? Is putting zooks on a riflemen squad and blobbing with normal riflemen really that much of an issue? Because it would preform in a similar manner to Penals being blobbed with only really difference that the riflemen would be backed up by AT guns/MGs while Penals get squat. I'm all for toning down the AT satchel to be less of a hard counter to LVs if it means Penals could have a snare without the need for PTRS. With how lacking Penal builds are in terms of support weapons or just AT in general it's something that needs to be addressed.

I honestly could care less how it gets solved. Make the SU76 easier to get/use, make it easier to backtech to T2, gives penals snares, or whatever else. The bottom line is that unless something else is done Penals will need to be very flexible in what they do as it's the primary reason you go T1. Otherwise Penal builds are still gonna be niche options only used with commanders that have the 45mm because that gives them some actual form of AT to make it till later on.
Pip
30 Dec 2020, 00:57 AM
#992
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1594



I said Soviets.


I'm aware, but there's not a lot of need to maintain that dichotomy for Soviet. When there were two factions the split was "Allied short axis long" Now that USF have ostensibly usurped the "close range", and Brits have gone the other direction and arguably overshadow OST's "Long Range" role.

Soviet have little reason to avoid range-capable nondoc units at this stage in the game. They're not a "Close range" faction, they're an "Utility" faction.
30 Dec 2020, 01:47 AM
#993
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1515



So should we look to nerf riflemen because they can be AI and AT in a blob? Is putting zooks on a riflemen squad and blobbing with normal riflemen really that much of an issue?



Somebody is putting zooks on rifles? Is that some sort of "I want to lose" tactics? Rifles are pretty munitions greedy for BARs to be effective late game. Zooks are only ever suited for echelons and rangers (Seldom paras). Who would in their right mind blob rifle zooks. That would be a huge munitions bleed that would lead to MP bleed without actually killing any tanks (unless the enemy is not paying attention)
30 Dec 2020, 02:32 AM
#994
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979



Only really applies to Ostheer as they can just cheese Soviets endlessly in the early game. It's more fun/playable against OKW.

Unfortunately, I don't see how the new patch changes this.


the new patch makes it worse... now we have luchs shooting through cover and defeating infantry better than the significantly more expensive (tech costs) T-70...
30 Dec 2020, 03:02 AM
#995
avatar of FunPolice

Posts: 133



Somebody is putting zooks on rifles? Is that some sort of "I want to lose" tactics? Rifles are pretty munitions greedy for BARs to be effective late game. Zooks are only ever suited for echelons and rangers (Seldom paras). Who would in their right mind blob rifle zooks. That would be a huge munitions bleed that would lead to MP bleed without actually killing any tanks (unless the enemy is not paying attention)

It was a rebuttal to the argument that penals getting snares makes them to powerful if you blob PTRS penals and regular penals. Which I disagree with because it would essentially be the same as blobbing rifleman expect for the fact you are ruining one of you mainline infantry with AT weapons compared to like rifle blobs where you get echelons to have the AT.

With how severely limited Penal options are for most things they need to be capable at holding their own unless some change makes it easier for them to get something like a Zis out. Like imagine Riflemen don't have snares and the only AT they can get is zooks on riflemen until they get a medium out. Doesn't sound good does it? Yet Penals are actually dealing with that and yet it's an issue for them to get a snare that isn't tied to PTRS.
30 Dec 2020, 03:25 AM
#996
avatar of KT610

Posts: 69

Nothing complements an aggressive semi automatic rifle infantry with a hyper close range explosive and increased stats for every man lost like a long range, static weapon best suited for sitting in cover...


1. Riflemen are also aggressive semi automatic rifle infantry that can be given LMGs. Sure most of the time its better to give them BARS, but Some Maps favor LMGS.

2. Obers get bundle grenades a Strong short range explosive and they get LMGs

3. "To the Last Man" buffs the squad as men die it does not matter if die at max or close range the sqaud still gets the buffs

4. By vet3 penals gain two +30% accuracy and would be quite strong upgraded with DP-28s

Giving Penals more Tactical flexibility would help them come back into the meta.

30 Dec 2020, 06:01 AM
#997
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1



So should we look to nerf riflemen because they can be AI and AT in a blob? Is putting zooks on a riflemen squad and blobbing with normal riflemen really that much of an issue? Because it would preform in a similar manner to Penals being blobbed with only really difference that the riflemen would be backed up by AT guns/MGs while Penals get squat. I'm all for toning down the AT satchel to be less of a hard counter to LVs if it means Penals could have a snare without the need for PTRS. With how lacking Penal builds are in terms of support weapons or just AT in general it's something that needs to be addressed.

I honestly could care less how it gets solved. Make the SU76 easier to get/use, make it easier to backtech to T2, gives penals snares, or whatever else. The bottom line is that unless something else is done Penals will need to be very flexible in what they do as it's the primary reason you go T1. Otherwise Penal builds are still gonna be niche options only used with commanders that have the 45mm because that gives them some actual form of AT to make it till later on.

Su-76 will become easier to use, T2 has become easier to tech.

Soviet are not USF and Penal are not to Riflemen.

As I pointed out previously the problem lies with the idea that Soviet T1 build so be carried on the shoulder of Penals. Trying to turn soviet into USF once the built T1 simple will not work, it will either lead to Penal blobs or it will lead to T1 oblivion.

It is high time to accept that and simply change the design.
30 Dec 2020, 13:11 PM
#998
avatar of Letzte Bataillon

Posts: 195

Soviet inf and support need a buff, and what I see in those patch are conscript nerf, what the hell

Early game is insanely in favor of the German as a soviet

This useless maxim needs so long to ping other infantery is crazy



The Maxim should cost 240 MP, for a start. Its current 260 is unwarranted.

Unless there's something I'm overlooking.
30 Dec 2020, 13:47 PM
#999
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Dec 2020, 03:25 AMKT610


1. Riflemen are also aggressive semi automatic rifle infantry that can be given LMGs. Sure most of the time its better to give them BARS, but Some Maps favor LMGS.

this is true. I'll pm you next time I see lmg rifles

2. Obers get bundle grenades a Strong short range explosive and they get LMGs

the bundled nade is not a hyper close range nade. It's a normal ranged nade. And if you look closely the Ober lmg fires on the move which allows them to be aggressive. If you look closer you'll see that obers are bolt action infantry and not designed to get up in the enemies face, ON the contrary they are designed to excel at range...

3. "To the Last Man" buffs the squad as men die it does not matter if die at max or close range the sqaud still gets the buffs

it's designed to be in line with their due trying theme. The buffs are universally strong but it's there for the risk reward aspect

4. By vet3 penals gain two +30% accuracy and would be quite strong upgraded with DP-28s

Giving Penals more Tactical flexibility would help them come back into the meta.

it's not in the role of the unit nor the theme of the faction. Sitting back and plinking away is the job of conscripts not penals.

30 Dec 2020, 14:30 PM
#1000
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

it's not in the role of the unit nor the theme of the faction. Sitting back and plinking away is the job of conscripts not penals.

Oddly enough Penal are quite good at long range fight once vetted. Their vet 1 ability and accuracy buffs make the quite good at prolonged cover to cover fights.
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