I'm sure. Same reason why we have lost so many strategist throughout the years and why there's have always been a different forum/discord/steam group for a smaller group of players to discuss balance changes.
Reddit tends to have a circlejerck/mindhive problem but the voting system at least filters the discussion in one direction, even though the platform itself is not good for prolonged discussion. Not sure how it could be implemented but the forum needs some simil function.
Voting systems invariably cause circlejerks. I don't think implementing anything like that will be a positive change at all.
In any case; consensus doesn't necessarily form around the "Correct" opinion. |
It can't. Even things that they know will cause problems after the patch (doctrinal) doesn't seem to have the scope to be changed.
Commander focused patch is the following one (this is just meta ones)
I still really don't understand why Lelic don't loosen the Balans team's leash a bit more, and let them push their own patches rather than having to be seemingly approved and done through a Lelic staffer.
What are they so afraid of? |
The reason is: the slot affects 3 different units.
But sure, we could remove 250 and storms from the doctrine and put 5 man grens, 5 man pios and PGs with repair in these slots instead.
That is entirely immaterial. If you wanted to put a new unit in the doctrine you aren't forced to remove something else. |
I think that putting a unique squad behind replacement ability is frankly a waste. Finding middle ground between Grenadiers and Ostruppen would not be an easy task either, especially since they would be arriving later than Ostruppen.
The idea of the squad is to act as a reinforcement option through merging, the squad doesnt really need to be combat capable, or even really have any abilities. It's just there to merge into other squads. |
You mean Isildur picking them once, losing, and then saying afterwards he never should've picked them?
Picking a faction and regretting it is technically better than not picking it in the first place due to knowing it isnt viable, i suppose. |
thats a problem with the current implementation of ostroppen though, not necessarily the ability (although the ability is kinda butts right now as well, but we are tryin to work on that!), thats why im thinking if it comes preupgraded, it may not be quite as bad, hell, it might even be worth using earlier in the game to try and leverage the upgrade and gain some vet.
could even try something more like 2 DP28s instead of neutered lmg42, it would allow the dps to be spread across 2 models instead of concentrated on 1 and as a whole give the squad more supportive bite and differentiate them from grens.
really do like the spirit behind the ost ability, since it DOES offer something new and potentially dynamic. its mostly implimemntation there though.
the soviet one on the optherhand.... pay munitions and manpower to get a fresh t0 squad you could build at any time that is no different THAN the one you can build at any time is rather silly.
the more i think about it, coming preupgraded would at least offer a windo of opprotunity for both abilities if the CP is right as well... i literally cant tell you what the current CP is though because the abiltiies are so bad they basicly kill the commanders they are in and i dont think i have EVER seen them in the last many years....
I think an OST player would probably just prefer to be able to build Osttruppen, rather than have to use a gimmicky ability to get them. |
M8 did you even read the whole what i wrote. I spherically asked you to not reply in this manner. Like there could be so many factors m8. Like at the finals seeking neglected healing and paid the price for it. Does that mean 5 man grens are as bad as in that game??? stats like that say nothing. How do I know know that 67% win rate isn't purely the result of allied player making mistake or some mega final armor push by the axis player which has nothing to do with the doc or the ability.
By what measure are you saying that VSL is bad, exactly? |
Rapid Conscription adds flavor to Soviets. I think just buff it. Make the munitions cheaper, or make it so it takes less models to create a new squad.
Same thing for Ostheer
Just because it "Adds flavour" doesn't mean that it's good design, or that it should be kept around. |
I mean we had this topic plenty of times now in other threads, so I won't go into much detail here since everyone that is interested should please look at the older discussions.
My take on that is that Allied side techs are mostly used to time the main tech. Design wise, side techs are not optional for the most part and the main infantry is designed to have it sooner or later anyway. For Axis, these functions are just tied to the main tech, therefore I don't add these costs to the units themselves. There are also plenty of other reasons why this is my opinion, but as I said this is better discussed in one of the older threads.
I agree with your second point though: VSL fixed one of the very few holes in an otherwise complete faction. There was barely any weakness in Ostheer to play around anymore. Grenadiers did get survivability while retaining a very decent DPS boost. It was in most cases superior to the MG42 upgrade. I am glad it gets toned down to mostly survivability, so now there is a (hopefully equivalent) choice of either survivability OR DPS. Which is how in my opinion commander abilities should be designed: Offer choice to allow for a different playstyle/strategy, not replace something of the stock arsenal.
I definitely agree with this, I much prefer when Doctrinal units/upgrades are supplemental "Sidegrades" than straight upgrades, like the old VSL was.
As an aside: I do wish all factions had all the tools they "need" nondoctrinally, and Doctrines were able to provide more esoteric options to augment them, rather than filling holes/deficiencies or fixing flaws with a faction.
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It's less about encouraging losing models, more about getting pay-back for models you're going to lose during engagements anyway. Allied War Machine in CoH1 did actually incentivized straight up losing vehicles, especially expensive ones, to get anything out of the ability.
Very solid write of the place of such abilities in current meta. One thing I could add though about units already arriving upgraded. One alternative to this rework is that instead of receiving additional Conscript Squads "in reserve", there would be just a single "reserve" Conscript Squad which gains veterancy levels with every 6 infantry models lost. Less "Rapid Conscription" and more like "Learning from the Fallen".
However, as Vetaran Riflemen ability and original Elite Troops Doctrine shows, giving out vetted squads is also something that should be done very lightly. In this case, the squads would arrive much later, so the careful balance of early game wouldn't be affected.
I mean, sure, but it still incentivises you to play much more riskily during the window the ability is "in use", as you get nothing if you don't lose enough models... and even with the proposed rework you'll need to lose a certain number of models per activation for it to really be "worth it". This is exacerbated by the short period that these abilities are even active.
Regarding the last paragraph of your post: I think so long as you're "Earning" the experience that allows you call in a veteran squad it would be far less terrible for balance than the old "Elite Troops" and "Veteran Riflemen" abilities... though getting veteran squads is sort of the opposite of "Rapid conscription".
Snibedy snab  D
While i do agree with your sentiment, I'd have to argue that I'd much rather get a Conscript squad lategame, (particularly with Mobilise Reserves) than an Ostruppen squad. The Conscript squad at least provides massive utility, and vets quite quickly... whereas Ostruppen are absolute garbage at that point in the game.
If I'm being entirely honest, I think scrapping the abilities entirely looking for other design space to fill the gaps might be better.
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