Profile of Pip

I doubt though that this will really solve the T1 issue of Soviets. The main problem in my eyes is that T1 is a cheesy building, and going for it means you neglect the "standard" play style of support weapons. And Since ATGs, MGs and mortars are needed in this game, this in turn means Penals need to fill the gaps for everything by either replacing it or making up for it.

I assume that turning down the early power of Penals would just hit T1 even harder, since it now loses everything it has going for it. When should be upgrade be unlocked? Instantly? I assume most would then go for it anyway. At T3? How do T1 builds then deal with earlier upgrades of Axis factions?

Don't get me wrong, I think weapon upgrades for Penals can be part of a redesign, but the issues lie elsewhere.


No one really builds Obersoldaten at the moment unless you can upgrade them. If it weren't for the IR StGs and the concept that all weapon upgrades should cost ammo, they could just come at a higher price with MG34s already unlocked. For the current meta, it would make no real difference. And in the most recent changes they actually go back to the 'old' design, they just come slightly earlier.
Obers are a very different topic though. They are elite AI squads that are can be backed up by support weapons and are supposed to come at a time when Allied infantry is already vetted. There is no need to balance them for all phases of the game, since they join only for the mid game onwards anyway. Penals though need to bridge the whole gap.

Soviets as a whole just suffer from being a poorly designed faction, it seems. The tech structure needs reworking at bare minimum.

I agree that my post was somewhat of an oversimplification.

Yes Soviets bad tier structure, absence of non-doc good tanks/infantry and over reliance on the T-70/Quad/T-34/ and Katyusha for cheesy anti-inf power is really not fun. I've been working on an "asymmetry" mod to shake things up for fun.

It's inherently flawed tier system that can never be balanced: Penals and M3 need to be mediocre to compensate for the fact they arrive at the start of the game. But since Tier 1 doesn't have access to support weapons, it is an extremely high risk/low reward option. How do you balance mediocre units on a high risk/low reward tier without making them OP? You can't really. Lowering the cost of teching lowers the risk element, but I think having structures cost only 80 manpower is inelegant and feels contrived. (just like a 12 second build time) 4 Conscript models for an entire building?

Additionally, Soviets are far too limited in viable commanders because they have no advanced tanks in Tier 4 like Panther/Comet. So you only see Commanders with call in heavies or T-34/85 and KV-1. A non doc KV-1 (nerfed if needbe) would open up a lot of other non-meta call-in tank commanders.

In my WIP mod I changed the tier system so that it's linear and the Weapon Support Centre is the new Tier 1 and Special Rifle Command is the new Tier 2 which means M3 and Penals can get buffed without them being obnoxious because they arrive later. (This was actually someone elses idea on the forums that I saw)

It's not just that they come early is the problem, it's that they come early and at full power (Other than veterancy bonuses), which means that they're difficult to get into a spot where they're not either relatively useless, or too strong at whatever timing they arrive at.

To properly balance Penals I think you really do need to look at having them enter the field being at a slightly higher price than Conscripts and Conscript Power, and being made to upgrade them to unlock their full strength. This has been suggested before when people talk about making them "Like Panzerfusiliers". Lelic are really against the concept of "Nondoctrinal weapon upgrades" for Soviet infantry though.

I still think they, as what really does amount to a "mainline-ish" infantry unit, should come from Tier 0, too.

As a comparison (Though it's not quite the same) Look at Obers. They used to come onto the field with the Flugabwehrkanone Truck, and immediately be able to upgrade to their LMG to make them "Full power". They weren't terribly viable at that point, as they simply came too late.
They were then changed to come with the significantly cheaper FlakTruck, and their upgrade was gated behind Panzer Authorisation. This made them more viable, as they could enter the field at a much better timing, while not being able to totally overpower allied infantry. I still think Obers have issues, but this change helped to improve their viability.

Which it probably should be anyway, so I think that's okay. Guards are more expensive, arrive a little later, etc.

But elchinos ptrs penals and guards are also different enough that there's not too much overlap. Guards are more versatile. Their AT is less potent on its own, but button+ something else is great. Especially button + AT satchel (very satisfying)

Yes, but what I'm saying is that I'd prefer if (Some variant of) Guards were available nondoctrinally for Soviet to use as their AT option.

All of what you said OST pio is doing + additionally only one who can build sandbags, have to build buildings. OST pioneer is the most heavily overburdened unit in the game.

Yes, but you generally have two OST pioneers, even quite early on in some builds, whereas you simply cannot justify two Sturms in most cases.

Because the Pak-43 is;

A: Doctrinal

B: (more importantly) Far more vulnerable to attack than the 17 pounder, as the crew can be killed.

If the PAK couldn't shoot through things it would be basically unusable... and it isnt exactly all that good at the moment.