How come Grenadier weapon upgrade is better than Bar or Bren despite costing the same munitions, how come Grens can get their LMG anywhere in territory but Allies have to go back to base, how come LMG is available as soon as you get BP1 but Allies have to pay fuel and MP for the unlock?
There are problems facing Grenadiers but this isn't one of them.
the ability to purchase two bren/m1919a6 far out weight the benefit you listed. double lmg blob is the stuff of nightmare, there's a reason why they are limited to one on the grenadiers. |
The introduction of a powerful T0 mortar (as opposed to what originally was planned, namely a weak 60mm one) was a clear game design error. The disbalancing consequences for OH which relies on static infantry play are obvious.
Just give isg and pak howie suppression on barrage, give usf 60mm mortar. FIXED
I doubt an t0 usf mortar is going to work unless that 60mm mortar is next to useless.
any decent mortar will just give the USF the ability to safety skip grenade and rush stuart. The USF rifleman and stuart are both too powerful to allow for a decent early game mortar.
USF already undeniably have the best early game of the five factions. Giving them a decent mortar buff the USF because it synergy with the rifleman and directly counter the mg42.
and all this talk of giving USF an early mortar to counter wehr mg42, where's the new wehr unit to counter stuart? There's a reason why the stug E and puma are still the two most popular 1v1 wehr doctrine. The stuart's extra armor, hp, and shock round allow it to tackle and kill 222 more easly then the soviet.
Unless the wehr get something like a pak40 HT, the usf shouldn't get an early mortar.(or the stuart get hit with a nerf hammer) |
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the US pack howitzer were locked behind teching for a reason. Locking the pack howitzer give the axis time to establish their foothold against the rifleman onslaught before the USF get effective artillery. let's not forget this is the same faction with access to some of the best light vehicle in the game. The USF already have advantage in field control with their rifleman and stuart before the wehr get their stugE/Puma.
giving the USF a tier 0 mortar made the pack howitzer completely redundant and make the wehr's life that make harder. 4 rifleman + 1 mortar is a far more effective comb0 than 4 rifleman +grenade or even 5 rifleman.
It is also a fact that axis tech require them to take the "long road" around. the truck and tier research is basically forcing the axis to research their grenade and weapon rack before being able to get their light vehicle.
The addition of mortar basically mean the USF feels no need to research either the grenade or weapon rack upgrade, allowing them to rush tech stuart even faster.
making the mortar "work" is going to require a heavy nerf to the rifleman or to the USF faction. |
again, the mortar is a tradeoff. you can get away without teching grenades, but at the cost of more manpower/higher pop cap. in addition, the mortar doesn't instawipe squads or mg42s anymore, unlike a well-placed grenade.
ost suffers because of the 4-man squads, but they also have an early sniper, which works great with support from an MG and grens to counter and bleed aggressive rifle play.
It's more effective against a conservative enemy, but worse against a aggressive one. It's a trade-off that adds veriety, not a general buff. A buff would be if the faction was simply stronger against all builds, which isn't the case.
really, you guys are complaining about having access to one of the best mortar in the game? after complaining about lacking that very same units?
the USF get a free officer when they tech up , and access to one of the best light tank in the game. field presence is hardly an issue for the USF in the early game, especially against the wehr.
and the ostheer is conservative compared to the USF. Grenadier can't rush down and flush out rifleman. If the rifleman is using any sort of cover, it's going to turn into a protracted fight. |
Not hard... Pay attention and keep your squads moving. It only becomes really punishing if you blob or keep your guys still.
The added benefit for usf is that now they can close the distance without dropping multiple models, since mortar can keep grens or volks from just sitting in green cover all day
Rifleman(and by extension the USF) have the flexibility to go aggressive and be a harder target to hit, but not the Ost. The nature of the ost favor static play. Their grenadier favor long range combat and are dependent on support weapon.
even an "okay" hit on a mg42 is going to kill it or force it off the field, and without the mg42 the grenadiers are easy picking for the rifleman.
Skyshark is right. The mortar was necessary to help counter early mg spam and garrisons on certain maps as well as add some well needed variety to USF early game. It does not make the USF early game any stronger as there is a clear trade off between field presence.
Grenades were always a half measure to MGs and garrisons, not a full counter. Grenades are easily avoidable, and smoke only causes players to reposition their MGs. They heavily drained munitions and were simply not enough on several maps.
We can debate on the correct stats, but the addition of the mortar was definitely a good thing for the game.
the grenade upgrade cost 150 manpower, 25 fuel, and a stockpile of munition to be effective. As you said, the grenade upgrade is in many ways inferior to having a mortar unit due several reasons. This is why giving mortar to the USF buffed the faction. They can barrage the enemy instead of relying on grenades.
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Or make it not a superior 81mm clone in most cases.
Since I finally organized my CE patch notes with details, here's the version I propose:
M1 81mm Mortar
Changed the damage profile and stats to make the mortar closer to a light weapon meant to support and keep up with riflemen and other units while not overlapping with heavier indirect-fire units like the Pack Howitzer.
-AOE from 1/0.5/0.25 to 1/0.4/0.15
-AOE distance from 1/2/3 to 0.5/1.5/3
-Cost from 260 to 240.
-0.75 Wind Down from 2.
-Can interrupt set-up time.
-Veterancy 1 changed to WP Rounds.
-Angle scatter to 7 and scatter max to 7. Barrage scatter max to 5.
-Auto-fire reload from 4 to 2.8.
-Minimum range to 20, maximum range to 65 for auto-fire and non-vetted barrage.
Before anyone thinks it may be OP due to ROF, its damage is not impressive at all and it needs to be closer meaning its also easier to kill. It compensates by being faster to relocate which matches the USF's play-style and being an annoying unit that will at least make you think about moving. Pack Howitzer become relevant once again since it hits much harder with range.
Giving the USF an early mortar without some kind of nerf to the USF is not going to work. A mortar is suppose to flush mortar out of building or otherwise uproot it.
A mortar that's strong enough to serve its purpose but yet "weak" enough to not put wehr under pressure is self contradictory. It either does the job or it doesn't.
The vet 0 usf 81mm isn't even that strong. It's just a more expensive clone of the wehr 81mm. the extra 20 mp is basically paying for the superior veterancy on the usf 81mm.
the USF doesn't need the mortar to begin with. It has always been the strongest early game faction since introduction. Removing the mortar would just mean the USF go back to being the strongest early game faction with a somewhat dull opening. Removing the mortar is the easiest solution to the usf mortar problem.
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is that it remove the need to research the 25 fuel grenade upgrade.
By giving the USF mortar by default, it remove the need to spend 25 fuel in order to counter the ost mg42. The USF player can now use that fuel and rush stuart more safety.
the USF mortar needs to be removed, or the USF's starting resources needs a decrease. remove 50 mp and 10 fuel from the USF's starting resource to reflect the access to mortar. |
So a turretless tank destroyer stunning with twp was deemed op, but a turreted one with much higher dps having it is fine.
part of it is the price. the stug is relatively cheap while the FF is the most expensive TD in the game beside the axis super heavies. (panther have machine gun)
Even with the recent buff, the unit is still carried by its tulip rocket. It's not a cost efficient unit unless you have the munition to spare (ie, 2v2+). |
You checked their rec acc bonus?
Its insane as well in how weak it is.
penal get the same veterancy rec acc bonus as the grenadier, which is still higher than what the volks get. |
Replace with DP-28 upgrade, but have the flamer included with the conscript SMG doctrinal unlock?
giving the penal dp-28 when they have +69% accuracy is going to end badly for the axis.
that +69% accuracy bonus is also why they are overpowered. most infantry only get +30/40% |
Firesparks
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Firesparks
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