the problem with USF mortar

is that it remove the need to research the 25 fuel grenade upgrade.
By giving the USF mortar by default, it remove the need to spend 25 fuel in order to counter the ost mg42. The USF player can now use that fuel and rush stuart more safety.

the USF mortar needs to be removed, or the USF's starting resources needs a decrease. remove 50 mp and 10 fuel from the USF's starting resource to reflect the access to mortar.

I think it should be a weaker mortar like a lot of people suggested before it was added, more of a supporting smoke belcher type of thing.

is that it remove the need to research the 25 fuel grenade upgrade.
By giving the USF mortar by default, it remove the need to spend 25 fuel in order to counter the ost mg42. The USF player can now use that fuel and rush stuart more safety.

the USF mortar needs to be removed, or the USF's starting resources needs a decrease. remove 50 mp and 10 fuel from the USF's starting resource to reflect the access to mortar.

Or make it not a superior 81mm clone in most cases.

Since I finally organized my CE patch notes with details, here's the version I propose:

M1 81mm Mortar
Changed the damage profile and stats to make the mortar closer to a light weapon meant to support and keep up with riflemen and other units while not overlapping with heavier indirect-fire units like the Pack Howitzer.

-AOE from 1/0.5/0.25 to 1/0.4/0.15
-AOE distance from 1/2/3 to 0.5/1.5/3
-Cost from 260 to 240.
-0.75 Wind Down from 2.
-Can interrupt set-up time.
-Veterancy 1 changed to WP Rounds.
-Angle scatter to 7 and scatter max to 7. Barrage scatter max to 5.
-Auto-fire reload from 4 to 2.8.
-Minimum range to 20, maximum range to 65 for auto-fire and non-vetted barrage.

Before anyone thinks it may be OP due to ROF, its damage is not impressive at all and it needs to be closer meaning its also easier to kill. It compensates by being faster to relocate which matches the USF's play-style and being an annoying unit that will at least make you think about moving. Pack Howitzer become relevant once again since it hits much harder with range.

snip

exactly what I would want. and as it should be.

Or make it not a superior 81mm clone in most cases.

Since I finally organized my CE patch notes with details, here's the version I propose:

M1 81mm Mortar
Changed the damage profile and stats to make the mortar closer to a light weapon meant to support and keep up with riflemen and other units while not overlapping with heavier indirect-fire units like the Pack Howitzer.

-AOE from 1/0.5/0.25 to 1/0.4/0.15
-AOE distance from 1/2/3 to 0.5/1.5/3
-Cost from 260 to 240.
-0.75 Wind Down from 2.
-Can interrupt set-up time.
-Veterancy 1 changed to WP Rounds.
-Angle scatter to 7 and scatter max to 7. Barrage scatter max to 5.
-Auto-fire reload from 4 to 2.8.
-Minimum range to 20, maximum range to 65 for auto-fire and non-vetted barrage.

Before anyone thinks it may be OP due to ROF, its damage is not impressive at all and it needs to be closer meaning its also easier to kill. It compensates by being faster to relocate which matches the USF's play-style and being an annoying unit that will at least make you think about moving. Pack Howitzer become relevant once again since it hits much harder with range.

yea but when it was suggested allied fan boy simply said it was fine as it was

Or make it not a superior 81mm clone in most cases.

Since I finally organized my CE patch notes with details, here's the version I propose:

M1 81mm Mortar
Changed the damage profile and stats to make the mortar closer to a light weapon meant to support and keep up with riflemen and other units while not overlapping with heavier indirect-fire units like the Pack Howitzer.

-AOE from 1/0.5/0.25 to 1/0.4/0.15
-AOE distance from 1/2/3 to 0.5/1.5/3
-Cost from 260 to 240.
-0.75 Wind Down from 2.
-Can interrupt set-up time.
-Veterancy 1 changed to WP Rounds.
-Angle scatter to 7 and scatter max to 7. Barrage scatter max to 5.
-Auto-fire reload from 4 to 2.8.
-Minimum range to 20, maximum range to 65 for auto-fire and non-vetted barrage.

Before anyone thinks it may be OP due to ROF, its damage is not impressive at all and it needs to be closer meaning its also easier to kill. It compensates by being faster to relocate which matches the USF's play-style and being an annoying unit that will at least make you think about moving. Pack Howitzer become relevant once again since it hits much harder with range.

Giving the USF an early mortar without some kind of nerf to the USF is not going to work. A mortar is suppose to flush mortar out of building or otherwise uproot it.

A mortar that's strong enough to serve its purpose but yet "weak" enough to not put wehr under pressure is self contradictory. It either does the job or it doesn't.

The vet 0 usf 81mm isn't even that strong. It's just a more expensive clone of the wehr 81mm. the extra 20 mp is basically paying for the superior veterancy on the usf 81mm.

the USF doesn't need the mortar to begin with. It has always been the strongest early game faction since introduction. Removing the mortar would just mean the USF go back to being the strongest early game faction with a somewhat dull opening. Removing the mortar is the easiest solution to the usf mortar problem.

It doesn't seem all that amazing to me

Or make it not a superior 81mm clone in most cases.

Since I finally organized my CE patch notes with details, here's the version I propose:

M1 81mm Mortar
Changed the damage profile and stats to make the mortar closer to a light weapon meant to support and keep up with riflemen and other units while not overlapping with heavier indirect-fire units like the Pack Howitzer.

-AOE from 1/0.5/0.25 to 1/0.4/0.15
-AOE distance from 1/2/3 to 0.5/1.5/3
-Cost from 260 to 240.
-0.75 Wind Down from 2.
-Can interrupt set-up time.
-Veterancy 1 changed to WP Rounds.
-Angle scatter to 7 and scatter max to 7. Barrage scatter max to 5.
-Auto-fire reload from 4 to 2.8.
-Minimum range to 20, maximum range to 65 for auto-fire and non-vetted barrage.

Before anyone thinks it may be OP due to ROF, its damage is not impressive at all and it needs to be closer meaning its also easier to kill. It compensates by being faster to relocate which matches the USF's play-style and being an annoying unit that will at least make you think about moving. Pack Howitzer become relevant once again since it hits much harder with range.

If you're going to nerf the damage and the aoe that much you might as well change it to a sixty mm mortar. 81s across the board should be pretty hard hitting.

I disagree with the starting resource nerf for usf. The mortar provides a little bit of variance in usf build orders... It helps against crew served weapons but limits field presence. It's definitely necessary on narrow maps where ost mg play can shut down rifles early.

I don't have an issue with mirage's changes but too many people are still whining. They made updates and it's no longer OP. Is it effective? Yeah, but why would you buy it if it wasn't? If anything, it limits the value of the pack howitzer. A little more variation between the units would be fine.

Maybe if the damage profile was dropped but it suppressed slightly to compensate? Then it's a support weapon and rifles still need to do the killing.

But yeah, if you drop the damage or aoe you gotta rename it to a 60 mm.

It doesn't seem all that amazing to me

They made updates and it's no longer OP.

try it out a little more. its rof, its aoe, its range, all really good. its still fuks a lot of squads with laser accuracy. and that for a faction with strong early game....

Skyshark is right. The mortar was necessary to help counter early mg spam and garrisons on certain maps as well as add some well needed variety to USF early game. It does not make the USF early game any stronger as there is a clear trade off between field presence.

Grenades were always a half measure to MGs and garrisons, not a full counter. Grenades are easily avoidable, and smoke only causes players to reposition their MGs. They heavily drained munitions and were simply not enough on several maps.

We can debate on the correct stats, but the addition of the mortar was definitely a good thing for the game.

try it out a little more. its rof, its aoe, its range, all really good. its still fuks a lot of squads with laser accuracy. and that for a faction with strong early game....

Not hard... Pay attention and keep your squads moving. It only becomes really punishing if you blob or keep your guys still.

The added benefit for usf is that now they can close the distance without dropping multiple models, since mortar can keep grens or volks from just sitting in green cover all day

Not hard... Pay attention and keep your squads moving. It only becomes really punishing if you blob or keep your guys still.

The added benefit for usf is that now they can close the distance without dropping multiple models, since mortar can keep grens or volks from just sitting in green cover all day

Rifleman(and by extension the USF) have the flexibility to go aggressive and be a harder target to hit, but not the Ost. The nature of the ost favor static play. Their grenadier favor long range combat and are dependent on support weapon.

even an "okay" hit on a mg42 is going to kill it or force it off the field, and without the mg42 the grenadiers are easy picking for the rifleman.

Skyshark is right. The mortar was necessary to help counter early mg spam and garrisons on certain maps as well as add some well needed variety to USF early game. It does not make the USF early game any stronger as there is a clear trade off between field presence.

Grenades were always a half measure to MGs and garrisons, not a full counter. Grenades are easily avoidable, and smoke only causes players to reposition their MGs. They heavily drained munitions and were simply not enough on several maps.

We can debate on the correct stats, but the addition of the mortar was definitely a good thing for the game.

the grenade upgrade cost 150 manpower, 25 fuel, and a stockpile of munition to be effective. As you said, the grenade upgrade is in many ways inferior to having a mortar unit due several reasons. This is why giving mortar to the USF buffed the faction. They can barrage the enemy instead of relying on grenades.

Not hard... Pay attention and keep your squads moving. It only becomes really punishing if you blob or keep your guys still.

lol. i have lost a lot of moving squads to the mortar aswell, as its AOE very good. i play a lot of wehrmacht (and dont blob btw) and those 4 man squads are very susceptible to mortars.

TBH it was just another nobrainer option to a faction with a lot of it. For sure MG spam is quite cheesy, however maxim spam is the most effective form of it yet no early/good smoke option for OKW which needs it more then USF. For sure nades are a heavy ammunition draining option but it is your job (as USF) to avoid an early lockdown of an (mostly) OH player via Mg42. I like Mirageflas concept, additional this thing belongs behind teching. Make RE more usefull (e.g. buff its volley fire ability) to give USF more build options rather then RM-RM-RM-Cap/Lt. Maybe implement the WC51 to enable a more aggressive start similar to the Kubelwagen.

the grenade upgrade cost 150 manpower, 25 fuel, and a stockpile of munition to be effective. As you said, the grenade upgrade is in many ways inferior to having a mortar unit due several reasons. This is why giving mortar to the USF buffed the faction. They can barrage the enemy instead of relying on grenades.

It's more effective against a conservative enemy, but worse against a aggressive one. It's a trade-off that adds veriety, not a general buff. A buff would be if the faction was simply stronger against all builds, which isn't the case.

I really like Miragefla's changes, if not having to buy the nade upgrade is such an issue make it so it unlocks the AT nade and change riflemen vet 1.

It's more effective against a conservative enemy, but worse against a aggressive one. It's a trade-off that adds veriety, not a general buff. A buff would be if the faction was simply stronger against all builds, which isn't the case.

Adding a stock unit to a faction without counterbalancing it is a buff, just like adding the MG-34 is a buff to OKW, it's that simple. Many perceive the two as not equally impactful though.

again, the mortar is a tradeoff. you can get away without teching grenades, but at the cost of more manpower/higher pop cap. in addition, the mortar doesn't instawipe squads or mg42s anymore, unlike a well-placed grenade.

ost suffers because of the 4-man squads, but they also have an early sniper, which works great with support from an MG and grens to counter and bleed aggressive rifle play.

Sniper would look much better.

the mortar doesn't instawipe squads or mg42s anymore

again, i have to disagree. i experienced the contrary a lot of times since the bugfix

one instance comes to my mind, where my mate recrewed an enemy us mortar and with its first shot it ohk'ed an enemy at gun. and that is just one example

the thing about the sniper is that it costs a lot more and is a lot more risky. and quite frankly, a sniper cannot help you if the enemy mortar kills your mg and rifles recrew it