the problem with USF mortar

People defending USF mortar

Ok So... We add a mortar the faction didn't need in the first place. Then want nerf to oblivion so people won't use it anyway. Why not just accept that it was a stupid thing to do in the first place and remove it? Just like the OKW shrek change, it was a mistake.

Ok So... We add a mortar the faction didn't need in the first place. Then want nerf to oblivion so people won't use it anyway. Why not just accept that it was a stupid thing to do in the first place and remove it? Just like the OKW shrek change, it was a mistake.

this like supresion on leig and pack all over again (I miss those time ,when suppression rained from the sky )

the US pack howitzer were locked behind teching for a reason. Locking the pack howitzer give the axis time to establish their foothold against the rifleman onslaught before the USF get effective artillery. let's not forget this is the same faction with access to some of the best light vehicle in the game. The USF already have advantage in field control with their rifleman and stuart before the wehr get their stugE/Puma.

giving the USF a tier 0 mortar made the pack howitzer completely redundant and make the wehr's life that make harder. 4 rifleman + 1 mortar is a far more effective comb0 than 4 rifleman +grenade or even 5 rifleman.

It is also a fact that axis tech require them to take the "long road" around. the truck and tier research is basically forcing the axis to research their grenade and weapon rack before being able to get their light vehicle.

The addition of mortar basically mean the USF feels no need to research either the grenade or weapon rack upgrade, allowing them to rush tech stuart even faster.

making the mortar "work" is going to require a heavy nerf to the rifleman or to the USF faction.

this like supresion on leig and pack all over again (I miss those time ,when suppression rained from the sky )

It still rains from the sky, it's called UKF Tactical Support Regiment, Artillery Cover

hi - make ost 5 or 6 men squads that can shoot effectively while moving - then everything should be fine . As long as the're 4 men squads and completely terrible at shooting while moving and basically crap out of cover there'll always be a problem. Wehr mortar may be effective on paper but when it has to counter a fraction with a lot of mobile units it becomes crap. Conversely, any artillery piece will hard counter ost as they have to stand still behind cover to be effective. This is generally a big problem of this game - very effective USF units on attack vs static units of ost. Something has to be done here - why not give grens a choice between mp40 upgrade and lmg, they also should get some access to smoke grenades - then USF can have its mortar.

Just give isg and pak howie suppression on barrage, give usf 60mm mortar. FIXED

Just give isg and pak howie suppression on barrage, give usf 60mm mortar. FIXED

lol what ?

lol what ?

Isg is trash

pak howitzer is overshadowed by mortar

mortar is better than ostheer mortar at everything while also shooting smaller squads on a faction with the best early game.

Isg is trash

pak howitzer is overshadowed by mortar

mortar is better than ostheer mortar at everything while also shooting smaller squads on a faction with the best early game.

you know it will not end well like that right ?

The introduction of a powerful T0 mortar (as opposed to what originally was planned, namely a weak 60mm one) was a clear game design error. The disbalancing consequences for OH which relies on static infantry play are obvious.

Just give isg and pak howie suppression on barrage, give usf 60mm mortar. FIXED

I doubt an t0 usf mortar is going to work unless that 60mm mortar is next to useless.

any decent mortar will just give the USF the ability to safety skip grenade and rush stuart. The USF rifleman and stuart are both too powerful to allow for a decent early game mortar.

USF already undeniably have the best early game of the five factions. Giving them a decent mortar buff the USF because it synergy with the rifleman and directly counter the mg42.


and all this talk of giving USF an early mortar to counter wehr mg42, where's the new wehr unit to counter stuart? There's a reason why the stug E and puma are still the two most popular 1v1 wehr doctrine. The stuart's extra armor, hp, and shock round allow it to tackle and kill 222 more easly then the soviet.

Unless the wehr get something like a pak40 HT, the usf shouldn't get an early mortar.(or the stuart get hit with a nerf hammer)

I feel like the mortar needs to be in the lieutenant tier. The lt should be cheaper and unlock only the mortar and mg until either captain or major is called in.

It could even feasibly swap the m20 and aa ht for pak howie and atg if that were the case.

But this is just crazy talk trying to make sense of WFA tier systems.

I doubt an t0 usf mortar is going to work unless that 60mm mortar is next to useless.

any decent mortar will just give the USF the ability to safety skip grenade and rush stuart. The USF rifleman and stuart are both too powerful to allow for a decent early game mortar.

USF was generally doing that prior to the the mortar being used and they still can do it. 4 rifles into Captain or now 3 Rifles and a mortar into Captain. Grenades themselves are more of a mid-game upgrade when things are settled and you're now in the process of beefing up the Riflemen.

I don't get how adjusting the mortar will make it useless if we were to take the CE mod mortar for example. It can still block off garrisons with smoke and provide some damage against infantry, but doesn't do enough to force weapon teams to retreat by itself, is prone to getting counter-bombed, but does has the ability to keep up with aggressive riflemen. It also won't overlap with the Pack Howie.

Furthermore, giving it less range, means its easier to attack the mortar itself and harder to hit units that are operating in the back aka MGs. You probably won't kill it, but it's much easier to force off and means the USF can't simply keep it back without micro.

I'll say it again, USF needed a mortar, but they did not need an 81mm.

Also, if you're complaining about the Stuart as well, make a topic for that and how USF can generally rush out their light tank the fastest and how it can lockdown the majority of the lights/outright kill them with the push of a button.

Imho, Riflemen early-mid game, even with a mortar aren't an issue. The issue is how fast the USF can pump out their light tanks to bring that shock value forward when faction such as Ostheer might be just getting their first Pak out or their own LV without much room to grab AI units like PGs due to the need to counter light armour and no real method to force the USF to react outside of pissing them off with snipers. OKW, at least during a period of time, can start to heavily pressure USF and they'll have things like StGs coming online along with grenades which Rifles can't deal with unless upgraded or doing it from the start with the Sturm + Kubel push.

USF was generally doing that prior to the the mortar being used and they still can do it. 4 rifles into Captain or now 3 Rifles and a mortar into Captain. Grenades themselves are more of a mid-game upgrade when things are settled and you're now in the process of beefing up the Riflemen.

I don't get how adjusting the mortar will make it useless if we were to take the CE mod mortar for example. It can still block off garrisons with smoke and provide some damage against infantry, but doesn't do enough to force weapon teams to retreat by itself, is prone to getting counter-bombed, but does has the ability to keep up with aggressive riflemen. It also won't overlap with the Pack Howie.

Furthermore, giving it less range, means its easier to attack the mortar itself and harder to hit units that are operating in the back aka MGs. You probably won't kill it, but it's much easier to force off and means the USF can't simply keep it back without micro.

I'll say it again, USF needed a mortar, but they did not need an 81mm.

Also, if you're complaining about the Stuart as well, make a topic for that and how USF can generally rush out their light tank the fastest and how it can lockdown the majority of the lights/outright kill them with the push of a button.

Imho, Riflemen early-mid game, even with a mortar aren't an issue. The issue is how fast the USF can pump out their light tanks to bring that shock value forward when faction such as Ostheer might be just getting their first Pak out or their own LV without much room to grab AI units like PGs due to the need to counter light armour and no real method to force the USF to react outside of pissing them off with snipers. OKW, at least during a period of time, can start to heavily pressure USF and they'll have things like StGs coming online along with grenades which Rifles can't deal with unless upgraded or doing it from the start with the Sturm + Kubel push.

All of that makes sense to me. Was there a reason given why the 60mm was not implemented to begin with?

USF was generally doing that prior to the the mortar being used and they still can do it. 4 rifles into Captain or now 3 Rifles and a mortar into Captain. Grenades themselves are more of a mid-game upgrade when things are settled and you're now in the process of beefing up the Riflemen.

I don't get how adjusting the mortar will make it useless if we were to take the CE mod mortar for example. It can still block off garrisons with smoke and provide some damage against infantry, but doesn't do enough to force weapon teams to retreat by itself, is prone to getting counter-bombed, but does has the ability to keep up with aggressive riflemen. It also won't overlap with the Pack Howie.

Furthermore, giving it less range, means its easier to attack the mortar itself and harder to hit units that are operating in the back aka MGs. You probably won't kill it, but it's much easier to force off and means the USF can't simply keep it back without micro.

I'll say it again, USF needed a mortar, but they did not need an 81mm.

Also, if you're complaining about the Stuart as well, make a topic for that and how USF can generally rush out their light tank the fastest and how it can lockdown the majority of the lights/outright kill them with the push of a button.

Imho, Riflemen early-mid game, even with a mortar aren't an issue. The issue is how fast the USF can pump out their light tanks to bring that shock value forward when faction such as Ostheer might be just getting their first Pak out or their own LV without much room to grab AI units like PGs due to the need to counter light armour and no real method to force the USF to react outside of pissing them off with snipers. OKW, at least during a period of time, can start to heavily pressure USF and they'll have things like StGs coming online along with grenades which Rifles can't deal with unless upgraded or doing it from the start with the Sturm + Kubel push.

mortar is a force multiplier. 4 rifles + 1 mortar is better than 5 rifles. There are some stuff that rifleman just can't do, namely acting as artillery and removing machine gun from a safe distance with either explosive or smoke.

the mere existence of a t0 mortar make the USF that much more deadly and make it more diffcult for the wehr to survive that harrowing early game. Not only does the wehr have to worry about rifleman, they now also have to worry about a mortar.

And USF doesn't need a mortar to survive the early game. They have always held the early game advantage with their rifleman and superior light vehicle. If the USF lose, it's usually because they let the game lapse into mid-late game where the axis traditionally dominate.

the only discernible effect of a t0 mortar unit is to strengthen the USF's early game dominance and provide the USF with less incentive to buy the grenade upgrade.

Remember that the USF's primary smoke dispenser was the grenade upgrade. A mortar basically eliminate the need to buy the grenade upgrade in the early game. You also don't have to worry about munition early on as well. The most abundant resources in the early game is your manpower, and a mortar just capitalize that fact.


and the 60mm mortar feels like it's trying to be both crappy and useful at once. I don't see the 60mm mortar being that useful into the late game. It's a niche unit solely meant to boost the USF's early game where they honestly don't need the help. It's trying to boost "diversity" at the cost of balance.

the availability of an early mortar tube only exacerbated the ease at which the USF buy their stuart. Without the need to buy the grenade upgrade early on, the USF can rush Stuart that much faster.

Trying to dismiss the effect of an early mortar unit on the USF teching speed is missing the larger picture. Unless some drastic changes is made to the stuart or the ost, I don't see a t0 mortar fitting into the USF.

The mortar is the thing that makes me not want to play the game anymore.
If you load a game as Axis and you see that the enemy is USF then you can as well just leave the game because either way it goes, you won't have a lot of fun in the next 30 minutes.

mortar is a force multiplier. 4 rifles + 1 mortar is better than 5 rifles. There are some stuff that rifleman just can't do, namely acting as artillery and removing machine gun from a safe distance with either explosive or smoke.

the mere existence of a t0 mortar make the USF that much more deadly and make it more diffcult for the wehr to survive that harrowing early game. Not only does the wehr have to worry about rifleman, they now also have to worry about a mortar.

And USF doesn't need a mortar to survive the early game. They have always held the early game advantage with their rifleman and superior light vehicle. If the USF lose, it's usually because they let the game lapse into mid-late game where the axis traditionally dominate.

the only discernible effect of a t0 mortar unit is to strengthen the USF's early game dominance and provide the USF with less incentive to buy the grenade upgrade.

Remember that the USF's primary smoke dispenser was the grenade upgrade. A mortar basically eliminate the need to buy the grenade upgrade in the early game. You also don't have to worry about munition early on as well. The most abundant resources in the early game is your manpower, and a mortar just capitalize that fact.


and the 60mm mortar feels like it's trying to be both crappy and useful at once. I don't see the 60mm mortar being that useful into the late game. It's a niche unit solely meant to boost the USF's early game where they honestly don't need the help. It's trying to boost "diversity" at the cost of balance.

the availability of an early mortar tube only exacerbated the ease at which the USF buy their stuart. Without the need to buy the grenade upgrade early on, the USF can rush Stuart that much faster.

Trying to dismiss the effect of an early mortar unit on the USF teching speed is missing the larger picture. Unless some drastic changes is made to the stuart or the ost, I don't see a t0 mortar fitting into the USF.

While that is not wrong as such, I think the 60mm version will make the choice less of a no-brainer as it actually result in less map presence and bares some risks. Atm what is annoying is that the 5th unit for most guys is almost always a mortar that will pay off quickly if just placed somewhere safe and then left unattended for a good while into the game.

The reason for giving the mortar to USF (correct if I'm wrong) was if Wehrmacht goes for double MGs or such, sticks them into dominant garrisons, they would be forced into the early grenade upgrade. The current version is efficient regardless of what your opponent opts for and doesn't demand much micro. with a weaker version I think you'll actually see more variety in choices, regardless of an early stuart there would be some risk involved that can backfire.

All of that makes sense to me. Was there a reason given why the 60mm was not implemented to begin with?

The reason is purely cosmetic. There is no actual 60mm mortar in the game, it was always just a german mortar with an american crew.

The 81mm mortar is unique so there's no reason not to use it, and just put whatever stats they want on it.

The reason is purely cosmetic. There is no actual 60mm mortar in the game, it was always just a german mortar with an american crew.

The 81mm mortar is unique so there's no reason not to use it, and just put whatever stats they want on it.

Whatever you call it, the mortar in competitive edition mod doesn't perform as ridiculous as the current one, be it stats or cosmetics. Just take that one and it'll be fine.

The reason for giving the mortar to USF (correct if I'm wrong) was if Wehrmacht goes for double MGs or such, sticks them into dominant garrisons, they would be forced into the early grenade upgrade. The current version is efficient regardless of what your opponent opts for and doesn't demand much micro. with a weaker version I think you'll actually see more variety in choices, regardless of an early stuart there would be some risk involved that can backfire.

the USF should be forced into grenade upgrades.

It's part of the game meta that the Allies are "forced" into side teching in order to keep up with the axis and to delay the arrival of the allied vehicle. The Soviet, british, and american all put their infantry upgrade into side tech while the axis package their infantry upgrade into tier research.

a t0 mortar breaks the balance because it allow the american to skip grenade and rush for the stuart with relative safety. This is inherently broken. it make the american too safe in the early game.

if the axis managed to dig in too deep for normal rifleman, the USF should either be teching grenade or teching up to the pack howitzer, not buying a t0 mortar.

the 60mm is merely a weaker 81mm mortar that "promise" to be less broken.