Yeah, but what about side-grades?
Isn't it supposed to be that OST doesn't have to pay to get access to side benefits (nades, fausts, weapon upgrades) in the early game, but they have to pay for higher teching costs to get to the late-game? Wouldn't that sort of change sabotage this arrangement?
(Unless, of course, you are trying to make OST on-par with 81mm mortar USF. In that case, go for it)
package deals vs individual items. It's classic pricing tactic for package deal to be cheaper in total since you're buying in bulk. The t2 research is basically the lmg and grenade upgrade for the wehr. The okw's healing truck also pay on this.
The allied individual side tech are more expensive in the long run because the allies can skip them more easily depending on need. The onus is on axis to apply the pressure, in order to slow down allied tech. The british is especially famous for ignoring all their side tech in a team game and rush toward their cromwell or even comet.
the teching on the wehr's early game is still going to be inflexible. It's unlikely people are going to skip the t1 and t2 building (especially if t2 building and t3 research are both required for the stug). By the time the player can chose t3 building or rush toward t4 building, the allies should really have gotten access to their Td.
An important part of player skill is judging what tech you need and don't. |
The more straightforward to remove the necessity for the Stug is to do what VindicareX indicated.
Moving Stug to 2.5 could be an option only if Ostheer is no longer allowed to skip tiers anymore.
Otherwise, everyone is going to trivially skip T3 and rush T4 for their Brumbarrs:
- The Stug is the star-unit of T3; that's literally the only reason why you want to have T3 up in the end-game (P4? Ostwind? lol)
- The Brumbarr is the star-unit of T4. I don't need to explain to anyone what it does.
Speaking of which, it is now, incidentally, a lot easier to skip tiers as Ostheer.
Before the patch, if you had BP2 researched it used to take:
- 75 fuel to get T3 up
- 150 fuel to get T4 up, if you skipped T3
With the new patch (which reduced the price of the BP upgrades, instead of the buildings themselves), it takes:
- 75 fuel to get T3 up
- 120 fuel to get T4 up if you skip T3
Which means that, currently, it is entirely possible to do this. However, with the current system, skipping T3 means you are going to lose access to Stugs. (and it's not easy to spam Panthers AND Brumbars)
it's 120 fuel after getting t3 (bp2), that's more than enough for all three allied faction to access their tank destroyer and including the brummbar price, get their tank destroyer.
the brummbar and stug are a pretty powerful combo, but all three faction should have access to their TD by then.
and isn't providing flexibility a good thing? wehr late game isn't as spectacular as before. |
Just nerf light vehicles so Shreks and Paks actually work.
I can see the stuart being too cheap, but I don't see stuart being too powerful.
Wehr is the only faction without a proper light armor of their own. British, okw, sov, and the USF all get their own light tank and they are kind of balanced toward each other. Nerfing the stuart and t70 to accommodate the current wehr would likely ruin the units. |
Instead of having 2 versions of the m20, the captain could just have the M20 and M17 AAHT, with the Stuart unlocking when either the LT or Major is called in.
The LT could have the MG and mortar, with the pak howitzer and 57mm unlocking when either the Captain or Major is called in.
LT fuel cost to something in the 20-30 range. Captain cost to 50.
Weapon rack and Grenades could see an increase of 5 or 10 fuel to reflect the lower teching costs.
it's not two version of the m20. You can build the m20 from the LT but will need to wait until the captain/major to build the skirt.
and the 222 would probably get the 20mm lock behind an upgrade again. |
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222 for cost, soft counters T70 pretty well. If only the MG work...
This leaves us with the Stuart. While it has been meta before, the changes to 222 made LT mostly a dead or stopgap tier to counter snipers. Combined with OKW changes, it made Cpt even more of a safe choice.
Your suggestion feels like a bandaid for the CURRENT meta.
On an hypothetical world where i can make changes with 1 button to see if it's feasible:
-Reduce fuel cost of LT, Cpt and Major
-Remove Bar from LT, add some ability (rather than been a pseudo Rifleman) and let it buy the Bar (as the cpt zook).
-Limit unit production requiring an upgrade to unlock light vehicles and in the case of the Major, medium tanks.
-Require the Stuart to have LT unlocked but not LT vehicles tech.
Total tech cost should remain the same. USF would get access easier to support weapons, Stuart would see it's rush delayed due to extra LT requirement and the Scott could see some action.
LT (280 mp 25 fuel): m20 (skirt locked), 50cal, 57mm, pack howitzer
captain: stuart, m17 AAHT, m20 armor skirt
remove mortar
the USF can get their support weapon relatively early through the LT with m20 support and either get the captain or skip it entirely. |
Add Panzer III.
+1
if relic was willing to add an entirely new asset to the tech tree for free, there would be no problem.
the point of moving the stug g early was to give the wehr an early armor without needing new model, skin, animation, etc. |
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tier 2.5 meaning that the stug G is produced in the t2 building (aka Leichte Mechanized Kompanie), but locked until you get the tier 3 research (aka battle phase two).
the problem with USF stuart and Soviet t70 is not going away until the wehr get a light armor of its own. Right now the wehr compensate by using the puma and stug E in 1v1, but they desperately need an actual light tank early on.
One solution is moving the Stug E, puma, or a new unit(pak40 ht, etc) into the tech tree, but another solution would be moving one of the wehr's current's medium armor into an earlier tier.
The stug G would be the easiest unit to move, since it's a dedicated anti-tank unit. It wouldn't really function as a shock unit since the stug can't really fight infantry. The soviet already get the su-76 in the same building as the t70, and the stug would provide similar function as the su 76. |
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If you're going to nerf the vet 3 accuracy bonus, do that first before messing around with their upgrade.
doing anything else extra is prematurely at this time considering the over the top bonus. |
Make up your mind.
M20 is dead largely because of the improved AC.
the grenade is flawed in many way, but even flawed it's still good enough for the USF's better early game.
Particularly good USF player can succeed without needing to buy mortar or grenade, but 5x rifleman is still inherently easier to deal with than 4x rifleman + 1 mortar. The lack of mortar make the grenade more attractive in any case. the mortar just make the grenade redundant.
The USF should be forced to buy grenade, but yet they are not. The reality is that the Rifleman is already good enough that good players can manage without them, especially now when the more practical mortar is available to them.
The fact that people can rifleman spam into dominance in the early game is all the more reason why the mortar shouldn't be given for "free". Giving them mortar without some kind of nerf just boost the USF early game even further.
the AC was improved because the stuart was moved early, and because wehr doesn't have any light tank. |
The logic to this statement is true, to an extent. The game is largely built upon teching, upgrading and building units and buildings to counter what opponent is doing. However having to spend 25f and 150mp to access an ability that then has an ongoing muni cost to counter a unit that can be built from the start of the game is where your argument falls to pieces.
I am not disputing the effectiveness of grenades, rather the cost so early in the game as well as the fact no other faction has to tech to counter a unit built at minute zero. Please do not respond with "soviets have to tech to t1 or t2" or "soviets have to tech to flame nades" etc etc etc. Every faction has different teching cost, different starting resource and it is not required for this argument.
I am surprised however that the cost of grenades and weapon racks are not reversed.
If usf are, as you say required to tech to grenades, then the cost of t1 has to come down. M20 meta is virtually dead as it is.
Personally i almost never go grenades, unless i am facing mg spam ( 3+ ) or if the ostheer player is being overy agressive with mg positioning.
The grenades is not the "perfect" solution to the mg42 in the early game due to the fuel cost and munition demand, but the USF doesn't need a perfect solution early on. The USF infantry and light vehicle still provide decent map control in the early to mid game without the t0 mortar (or even grenades in many cases).
I would say that the USF still have the distinct advantage in the early game with the stuart and rifleman. The wehr are basically stuck on the defensive unless they get the puma or Stug E.
the situation start to change in the mid to late game, but that's why the pack howitzer are placed behind research. The USF uses the rifleman and light vehicle to gain initial ground in the early game and then research the unit and technology to crack the wehr defense. USF t0 mortar break the balance because it give the USF a reliable mean to break wehr defensive early, before the wehr can get their tanks out.
Giving the USF a t0 mortar will require some drastic change to the wehr and/or USF.
The m20 is itself a victim of the meta shift caused by the sov's t70 and the USF's own stuart. I also doubt the wehr can handle an even earlier m20. There's also the fact that LT lack atg and pack howitzer, both important unit. |
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