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Thread: British balance - Tommy too strong1 Aug 2019, 11:44 AM Jump back to quoted post1 Aug 2019, 08:54 AMSander93 You don't need an AEC if OKW skips their light vehicles to rush a tank. If they do get light vehicles, the AEC + its tech is cheaper (20 fuel more for OKW Mechanized vs 15 fuel for AEC unlock and the AEC is 60 fuel compared to 70 for the Puma). Even if you go for every side tech (except AEC), that is 35 + 15 + 10 + 30 + 115 + 110 - 20 = 295 fuel for a Cromwell, which is less than OKW need for their medium tank (310). So once again, the UKF still has faster tank tech timing in any scenario. Brits don't need Brens on Tommies to fight STG44 Volksgrenadiers either, they don't need grenades. See video below. They do fine just with Bolster. Besides Bolster, Brit side tech is all optional at the moment. Right, but you're also paying extra popcap and MP compared to volks. And I could find a great deal of replays where OKW players don't even bother with StG upgrade and instead prioritize inc nades to win early engagements vs Tommy to snowball with luch and puma (later command panther). Should we nerf incendiary nade to force them into having to use StG? It's the same logic you are using, and plenty of top players like luvnest have highlighted this issue with volks making the use of greencover redundant. If you're gonna nerf core Tommy DPS you're gonna have to make it cheaper with the MP drain. There's already been power creep with conscript, pgren and gren buffs, volks still the best cost effective and versatile inf (sandbags, Faust, AI upgrade, building clearance) inf the game. There's no doubt they're strong and over preforming in AI engagements, but you have to look at the broader balance picture rather than vacuum tests. You mention yourself you want to reduce Tommy DPS to make units in green cover or buildings stronger, but just what other tools to ukf have apart from section spam? Wasp is fragile and mortar pit is useless In: COH2 Balance
Thread: British balance - Tommy too strong31 Jul 2019, 21:01 PM Jump back to quoted post31 Jul 2019, 19:41 PMSander93 Let's see if we can get this discussion back on track a bit. Here's what we currently have in mind for the next patch: We acknowledge that Infantry Sections are overperforming, but that they are also the cornerstone of the UKF, so we'd like more to alter them rather than straight up nerf them. Still, some other units will probably get a minor buff to compensate for this. Preliminary changes: Additionally, we might look into fixing the reduced range for their grenade when suppressed (which currently doesn't work) and reduce the sight bonus that the pyrotechnics upgrade gives to make blobs less powerful. From the few tests I did, Tommies still felt strong in cover but more vulnerable when caught in the open by OKW infantry. They also felt less powerful against LMG Grenadiers in the open and when in cover. With these changes I felt like needing to get weapon racks and double Brens to keep the edge over upgraded Axis infantry, which is currently not the case in live. Bolstered and upgraded IS still dominated infantry engagements. Wasn't these changes attempted and reverted in the testmod before Brits got a snare? I seem to remember OKW walking all over them with luch and volk spam and Brits were dead in tourney play. The only thing that has changed since then is the RE snare. You have to be extremely careful going with the "force Brits to sink MP and fuel into Bren and five man tech" approach if you ask me, especially after a patch where pgrens and T2 skip into ostwind is now a thing. Also there's things that hamper Brits that still haven't been fixed for years like the lack of units to push vs sandbags/buildings with no flamer or mortar. Comet vet that sucks and sniper aim time that needs being put on par with Ost or sov one for countersnipes. I would like to see an entire rework to adjust OP and UP UKF units if IS get nerfed not piecemeal changes. Change the upgrade structure and look at fuel timings, give Brits a flame weapon that's not sucky like the wasp or god forbid an actual mortar team nondoc. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Pgrens and penals need some changes28 Jun 2019, 20:17 PM Jump back to quoted post27 Jun 2019, 20:47 PMDoomlord52 Pgrens with vet cannot "handle upgraded rifles or 5 man Tommies easy" with similar vet. They get demolished much like any other infantry squad. Double bar Vet 3 rifles / Double bren vet 3 IS are undisputedly the strongest, most cost efficient on-map squads in the game. Don't invest in an LV and try to push with it into shrek squads; they're designed to counter that kind of play. Go for an AAHT/Quad and suppress the shreks at range, they'll have no counter to it since they have to ATG. As for the 'muni surpluss', between 100 muni shrecks, 60muni "bolster", 60muni LMG42, grenades, etc. ost isn't floating a lot of muni early game. Why don't you open up testmod instead of talking trash? Vet 3 pgrens more than stand their own in most engagements against 5 man Tommies, unless you're sitting in cover at long range with perfect conditions pgrens will win. That's not even factoring in the nuke grenade that's a copy of the commando one Then there's stuff like their accuracy on the move that's some of the best in the game helping for wipes. Vet3 rifles come close with double BAR but they're going to be seal clubbed until you fork out 120muni a squad. Someone would think pgrens are ostruppen by the way you talk about them In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Shrecks In T228 Jun 2019, 20:07 PM Jump back to quoted post28 Jun 2019, 18:21 PMSander93 That is my point. AA Halftracks can counter these new T2 skip builds and force backteching or severe map control loss until Ostwind arrives. People just have to let go of their trusted builds (like T-70 rush) and adapt. Simply false, AAHT isn't a hardcounter to T2 skip at all because you're failing to factor Ost will usually have at least one or two MG42 with magic bullets and tellers. Actually most Soviet players will always go T70 because it's got much more shock factor and not shutdown by a 15muni MG ability. As I say shreks are not the only tool and ostheer can pump out an ostwind pretty damn quick which leaves you with your pants down and a crappy doctrine while you get hit with a tiger ace lategame and you have nothing but M10 in the case of Brits. Want to do a T2 skip? Pick a doctrine with airdrop Pak40. There's no reason why we should be stuck in a meta where T2 is ignored until ostwind In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Pgrens and penals need some changes27 Jun 2019, 20:22 PM Jump back to quoted post27 Jun 2019, 15:05 PMblvckdream Pgrens and Penals are too good but double Bar Riflemen and 5 man double lmg Sections are ok? Are we playing the same game? Well yes, when you factor in they are way more cost effective and at vet can handle upgraded rifles or 5 man Tommies easy. Issue is to get this effective infantry on par with penal/pgren as USF or UKF you're having to invest a lot of fuel, muni and manpower, right now Ost can skip T2 altogether until your shock vehicle hits. Making it even worse. A minor extra MP cost is really nothing when your opponent has to sink into fuel+mp infantry upgrades or luch just to stand a chance against your premium infantry. And like I say, even if you invest in a LV like luch/Stuart/wasp/AEC it's going to be negated by a cheap AT upgrade and spammed mines with their muni surplus, they don't even need AT guns. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Pgrens and penals need some changes27 Jun 2019, 20:07 PM Jump back to quoted post27 Jun 2019, 02:47 AMIncendiaryRounds I wonder if SuperHansFan posted this thread when penals were buffed and replaced cons complaining about powercreep. "Just so SU can fight volks so we need penals." I'm sure he didn't have a problem with that. But now SU's days of one-upping grens with penals is largely done since its counterpart pgrens have been buffed. Oh he isn't happy about that. "Just so Ost can keep up with double upgraded WFA troops without having disparity in vet levels" If you read through my post history you'll find I've always been in favor of removing cheese like maxim spam and instead changing Soviets with small conscript buffs (eg combining moli and at nade tech). I've never defended penal spam But feel free to search for my apparent bias despite me mentioning axis and allied problems in the OP. Btw I was warning about this issue even before patch... Now all we see is meta of players ignoring T2 until ostwind Similar issue with cost effectiveness Soviets get with penal that always culminates in map dominance with T70. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Ostheer T2 Skip27 Jun 2019, 00:03 AM Jump back to quoted post26 Jun 2019, 20:25 PMKatitof Go play into mid and late game without PaK above noob level. You'll see why skipping tech as ost doesn't work very quickly. Katitof if you're going to character attack at least make sure what you're saying is accurate I've seen Jove, spanky etc countering the deadliest light (T70) with a Shrek squad fine. When you factor pgren and ost doctrinal infantry don't require muni you can funnel all that spare mg42 or flameht muni into tellers. The fuel saved from tech skip combind with your opponent investing in light armor means your ostwind has a good window to boss the map even if you're losing slightly. But hey what do top 20 players know saving the fuel and mp of building a Pak... They must be noobs according to you In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Pgrens and penals need some changes26 Jun 2019, 17:48 PM I am of the opinion that both these units come too early for the firepower and utility they provide, now we are stuck in a meta where penals and pgrens are replacing cons and grens respectively. This is a grade A example of the term powercreep In my opinion penals should be changed to an AT unit, possible price change to match. Pgrens should be reverted to T2 or at least have their panzershreks tied to tech. The counter to premium infantry is light vehicles, but pgrens and penal builds instead of being punished by this counter allow you at a click of a button to convert an AT squad and just stall for Ostwind/T70 respectively while your remaining squads vet and out trade even upgraded mainlines. This is problematic for obvious reasons as the opposition is punished for reacting to a build as his fuel investment is negated by a small muni upgrade. Thoughts? In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Ostwind's penetrations23 Jun 2019, 21:01 PM Jump back to quoted post23 Jun 2019, 18:41 PMJibberJabberJobber The old Ostwind was outperformed by a P4 with pintle, so it definitely needed an AI buff. Most 1v1 Ost players sticked to spamming P4's for their AI needs, while ignoring both the Ostwind and Brummbar, because neither were cost efficient enough. I've personally had the old Ostwind lose a straight up fight against a single M-42 AT gun, which was quite saddening (it attacked an unsupported M-42 and had to back up with like 10% hp left, having killed only 3 models ). The Brummbar has a strong role in team games. With the Ostwind being a real tank again, a cost increase to 100 fuel seems in order. It has Centaur-like performance now, but trades armor for speed. The fuel increase would give Allied players more time to prepare. it was outperformed by P4 because P4 is one of the best AI mediums in the game. P4 with pintle is actually even better AI DPS than comet In: COH2 Balance
Thread: Ostheer T2 Skip23 Jun 2019, 20:56 PM Jump back to quoted post23 Jun 2019, 18:10 PMYeltsinDeathBrigades Not much time have gone afterpatch, people adopt slooooowly. There is no problem in pgrens with pshreks, problem is that people want a T70. Before patch T70 was a great choice against ostheer, because ostheer needed to bring in field more manpower and munitions just to counter it, or suffer from bad map control while T70 is uncountered. Things havent changed, there still be another option for soviets in case of pshreks on field: the quad. It is cheap and you pay exactly the same price for quad upgrade than ostheer for pshreks. Quad definitely will stand against pshreks because of suppression, and force ostheer to get a pak for countering. T2 is not skipped, voila. (btw quad and T70 is deadly combo) People just are accustumed to build orders, and they need to change them after this patch. The problem is with that logic Soviets are not the only faction vs Ost to be balanced with Actually if anything T2 skip mostly effects UKF because one Shrek squad can hardcounter WASP or AEC. Also with current meta of bolster and Tommy upgrades Ostwind has a field day munching British infantry before Cromwell arrives. Ostwind needs a little nerf in the AT department as it's a bit too good vs Stuart or AEC. Puma hardcounters centaur in comparison due to extra range and self spotting with the less mobile cent In: COH2 Balance