Ok, i almost ended new sheet. Only Health and Penetration (i have some thoughts, but need time about it) need recalculate for STUG 60 tweaks. I used accuraccy to calculate effectivness of unmoving STUG and SU-76.
Also some calculations about STUG 60 with possible tweaks to make it clone of old STUG (in terms of dps) but with new range.
Look at Sheet 2 "DPS 2". I also made some "notes" while make comparsions.
Also to bring more histrical accuracy - srapnel shots for ATG and srapnel mines for mortars (HE used only against fortifications). Infantry must dissapear in void.
Also we could make that flame weapon (flames, molotovs, offmap strikes) could destroy or crip engine of your vehicle. Historical accurate.
Make that mine from mortar if hit on tank with mg-gunner could kill entire crew. In su-76 you could throw grenade inside. Also, detonation of ammo for tanks - rare event that can kill all life around tank (all flame vehicle will be blow up by default, because flames)) )
I was talking about general armor, comet , kv 1, Churchill etc
Okw p4 is counted as premium medium as it cost 140 fu so it’s put together with t 34 85 easy 8
And again I’m not asking for buff, increase the price or reduce the rof accordingly
So with micro it can at least shoot once to 60 range tanks and respond to a su 76 or aec
You are make so great jump, from mediums,AEC and su-76 to doctrinal mediums and heavy tanks, that i missed it.
Churchill and comet miss - it's panther timeframe, they come sooo late than stug (you must make upgrade and after you can build one). You can use stug against them, but not 1, at least 2 or 3.
Kv-1 - heavy tank, not main prey for stug. It's panther food.
T-3485 and E8 - doctrinal mediums, you could use stug against them, but obviuos that stug will be in bad position. It's doctrine and it's fair that doctrinal armor have advantage against regular ones.
OKW-P4 it's regular medium for OKW (higher cost for higher performance, like everything for OKW). It can be saw in almost every game vs OKW, while t-3485, E8 only if doctrines were choosed.
Main targets for stug - non-doc mediums, LVs as for su-76 too. And again, if you want buff range, you must get nerf too (as su-76 got nerf to pen while buff to accuracy). Justified? I'll recalculate DPS and make comparsion regular STUG against 60 range STUG and how the whole picture will change. Then we will see who more economical effective - su-76 with 60 range or stug with 50 against regular enemy mediums.
u asked which unit that the stug intends to counter have 45 50 range and I told u, no back paddling now
Btw the stug fight similar armor , especially if u count ukf
And the stug comes later and cost more
Again ur argument is flawed, u saying that the stug does not need 55 range cause it’s target have low range (false), the su 76 performs the same role but with 60 range , I’m not asking for a straight buff, increase price or nerf rof for 5 range
While about range is true, but armor is full...don't true. Default armor of OST P4 - 180(234 with vet), OKW P4-234. Medium ally armor - 160 (Sherman and Cromwell) and 150 (t-3476). Stug always have 100% chance to pen ally armor at any distance. While su-76 - 88% and 68% on far. 100% and 76% on far-medium (it will become 76/76 when ost p4 got vet2 and 85/85% at pointblank) .
Range all mediums equal - 40.
If use logic - "stug fights against longrange su-76" it needs buff (or su-76 need nerf), then SU-76 need buff (or stug nerf) because "it fights against more healthy units and have lower damage and pen than stug"? After nerf/buffs make "justified" price for each unit.
Chance to score a "natural" hit is accuracy*target size.
Collision hits are not easy to calculate and one is better off doing a statistical analysis.
Thanks! I made quick test and looks like it works. I'll include chance to hit for mediums in table and recalculate DPS. Moving penalty works as decrease value? 0.5 moving acc means than chance to hit while moving will decrease at 50%? And 0.75 for sherman - 25% decrease?
I believe Sherman should be better in game test thank to the moving accuracy bonus, so it does not miss shoots while advancing
Btw did u count cool down and time to aim too ?
In coh2db all these stats equal for all armor (mediums and stug with su-76). But i'm pretty sure that more higher accuracy will work for sake of sherman on Far-Mid distance (it DPS will decrease not so much as for moving t-3476 or Cromwell). In fact, mediums DPS (if we include accuracy on moving) will decrease and Stug and Su-76 will have more advantage against them (because they don't move). Stug will have more "lifetime", while su-76 still dead (because DPS of P4 will decrease not so much to get for SU-76 chance to survive).
Again, it's all digits - in reality every player will kite and flank. It could only show raw performance of units. But even simple logic, without calculations says: "Stug always better as medium TD than SU-76". You could dive su-76 and have chance to survive, you could try to dive STUG with cromwell, but anytimes - against su-76 you have more chances.
If someone want to make these units closer to each other (in terms of resources and effectivness) - it will be only nerf for stug and buff for su-76 (even if you increase it cost, you will make it potent against p4).
In fact to make STUG more closer to su-76, there are simple ways:
1. Seriuosly decreased ROF + Decreased cost, increased range to 60
2. Seriously decreased Health + Decreased cost, increased range to 60
3. Seriuosly decreased Penetration + Decreased cost, increased range to 60
4. Seriuosly decreased Damage + Decreased cost, increased range to 60
I could make some digits for interest, when i will return to home, for each of these variants.
USF Riflemen now lose access to smoke grenades. This change will ensure that players continue fostering a mixed-squad army well into the late-game, and will also reward players more for using USF's elite infantry.
Because long-range non-doc smoke for regular infantry srew any HMG? Ye, you are still need gren upgrade for this, but let's count non-doc smoke for factions:
USF: RE (after gren upgrade), officers(3), m20, sherman, scoty, mortar, pak howi(?) - total 8(9) units with smoke
UKF: AEC, cromwell, churchill or comet (you could choose only one unit), mortar pit. - total 4
OKW: Puma, Leig - total 2
OST: Mortar - total 1
SU: Mortar - total 1
You still think USF lack of smoke in their army? Don't forget that USF got t0 mortar to have counter early HMG.
Okay, i ended table of battle effectivness of STUG ans SU-76
Some assumptions were made: only frontal battles, no any flanking. No any misses ( i don't know how calculate accuracy and target size). I use time of reload, damage, penetration, armor to calculate DPS. To calculate dps for different distance - divide speed of medium on distance of fire (close-mid, far-mid - for stug 2 values equals 25, for su-76 2 values on 30). I count that medium moving already with maximum speed.
I calculate STUG vs ally mediums and SU-76 vs OST P4.
Some things to remember:
Damage of all mediums 160, health of all mediums 640, range of fire of all mediums starts at 40. Stug chance to pen always 100% due it penetration. Stug health 560. SU-76 health 400.
1. The most dangerous enemy for stug is Cromwell - due high ROF and speed.
2. Ally mediums saved more health when point blank battle started due their high speed.
3. Stug always survive
4. SU-76 always die
5. vet3 t-3476 better than vet3 Sherman against vet3 Stug due higher ROF and speed - point blank battle starts sooner.
6. SU-76 deal more damage from Close-Mid battle (pen value higher).
First, StuG costs 90 fuel, not 75.
Secobd (can't look it up right now): didn't the OST P4 have 180 armor? that would be 88% pen chance for the SU76 at max range, which by the way depending on what you want to compare scews the calculation since it has 10 more range than the StuG.
Third, where did you get the ROF values from? The reload alone is not enough. An these values look a bit to simple for me.
And last point: you should make it clearer what you want to compare actually. Of course the SU performs worse against a OKW P4 than against OST P4 and than the StuG vs Allied mediums. That's because it's the most expensive standard medium in the game
We look to situation when stug will be cost 75, but have lower penetration and time of reload will be higher.
Armor the same as OKW. Default armor of ally mediums 160 (t-3476 have 150). Default armor of p4 180 (i thought it 160 like other, my mistake). I compare effectivness against mediums (main role of su-76 and stug). If they will be cost equal that means and effectivness should bring to one level?
Well proposed changes include nerf to stug rate of fire and nerf to stug penetration. This would mean stug has less penetration than su76 and less damage per second, but more single shot damage and more durable. Maybe you did not read my proposed change except for fuel cost reduction.
Let's look to some digits:
Damage per Shot * Chance to penetrate / time or reload
For stug (far pen of stug 140, that means chance to pen ally medium 87.5%):
160 * 0.875 / 6= 140/6=23,3
For Su-76 (far pen of su-76 160, that means chance to pen p4 with 160 armor equal 100%):
120 * 1 / 3.9 =30
In vet 0 SU-76 have advantage.
For stug:
160 * 0.875 / 6= 140/6=23,3
For su-76 vet 2 (default damage become 140 instead 120)
140*(140/234 (armor of p4 on vet2) ) /2.9 = 33
Replace values of reload with veterancy and we will see whole picture. I used the smallest time of reload as value.
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