why pick stug when u have pak 40 ? worse range more cost and worse scaling..... or maybe cause it's a vehicle and not an at gun ? u know like su 76 and zis
su 76 is perfectly fine, counter lv and lt and medium for a low price, if ur problem is scaling slap a 20 + more damage at vet 3 so it has 160 damage
su 76 got reworked cause it was spammed, free barrage was cheesy and su-76 spam was cost effective vs panther and other heavy tanks
Now you are remembered old times when spam of su-76 AND stugs was normal, because they both were cheap (su-76 cost 60 fuel IRC), have insane ROF and TWP ALWAYS penetrated heavy. I used this strat a lot, 3 stugs (su-76) to heavy, works pretty well especially in 2 vs 2. No need T4. |
the pima lacks armor and 60 rangae tho, what's ur point ?
yea like what ? osth ther puma comes out same time as a stug so no, for okw puma u need to count the - 15 starting fuel
btw now coming earlier is important ? cause u seem to ignore it with stug
IRC OST don't have non-doc puma, but maybe i'm wrong. I could remind for you current OKW vs SU gampelay: p2 + puma. P2 comes on 1 minute or 30 seconds earlier than t-70, you didn't build medtruck, instead you use medkits. After T-70 arrived, you build puma. Now you have puma+p2 against 1 t-70. You have 2, maybe 3 minutes to kill t-70 until first SU-76 will arrive (that i highly doubt will even become, how often i saw games in Dane channel or streams, it always was zis or ptrs). If t-70 was killed, you have total control over battlefield and can bleed your enemy by p2. T-70 need much more time to kill p2 than puma to kill t-70.
I remind to you again: no one SU player don't build SU-76 as start unit. If you build SU-76 right after t-70, timeframe of SU-76 and STUG will be almost equal. T-70 comes at 9-10 minute. P4 comes at 12-13 minute. If you choose STUG instead p4 you could get 1-1,5 minute discount (but i also almost never saw SOT who build 1-st unit STUG - it's always p4 or ostwind). While next SU-76 after t-70 will be with P4 time or right after it.
And i repeat my answer again (i hope you could read to these place and don't be ignoring my questions)
How often after this patch you saw SU-76 in games?
How often after this patch you saw ostwind and pgrens in games?
X-Y=???
How much? |
but they literally just reworked the su 76
The SU-76 is receiving a number of slight changes to improve its role against light and medium vehicles with only a slight reduction against heavy tanks.
Accuracy from 0.05/0.035/0.025 to 0.05/0.04/0.0375
Penetration from 200/190/180 to 180/170/160
Rotation rate from 30 to 32
And again u are asking for a single lower tier tech unit to easily beat a more expensive unit, both tech and fuel, can u send a puma or AEC 1 vs 1 tanks ? last time i checked u couldn't
btw are u arguing that having it come earlier is actually a disadvantage so it should be more powerful ? i mean if so 222 would need to be super op as each one will delay ur tech
Okay, i got your point.
How often after this patch you saw SU-76 in games?
How much after this patch you saw ostwind and pgrens in games?
X-Y=???
How much?
And i repeat again - if SU-76 have wrong place, it must be moved to T4. Because right now it's just like old-ostwind or old-pgrens. Too much cost for nothing (just told me, why you never build old-ostwind, i think answer will be the same as for su-76), while you have zis with the same abilities and much better scaling. |
Doesnt the firefly cost 155 fuel?
A jackson is only 10 fuel less than 2 su76 as well and lacks any Anti infantry.
The su76 doesnt hardcounter the panzer 4 any more than a puma hard counters a t34. What they both do is zone out the enemy mediums and provide supporting damage output although they do it differently. This is what the StuG should do as well imo.
Realization of puma much easier that SU-76, you have excel mobility, smoke, turret and TWP. You even could use it in lategame to suicide attack gainst enemy rocket arty.
And puma comes much sooner that su-76. Current OKW meta p2+puma against t-70 with volk blob. While i never saw SU meta t-70+Su-76 against p4.
I agree that all ligth TD must work as zoning unit, but how make them works properly i don't know. IMHO it will be better to remove or move SU-76 to t4 than what we have now. It absolutely don't have a place in game, like old ostwind and old-pgrens. |
im asking for a rework not a straight buff add 5 range increase price , reduce rate of fire, etc
I also want rework of SU-76 because in current position you must build 2 su-76 (150 fuel! more than t-3485 or kv-1) to have hardcounter to 1 P4, while OST could build 1 stug and hardcounter your medium. You saw digits. And i also didn't mention that every new armor after T-70 will delay your own t4 (or heavy) and you will be in very hard position, when axis armor will start push if you build 1 su-76 after t-70. |
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Main problem of STUG - enemy ATG. Because when you have 50 range you always should consider that behind this "blob of fog of war" hiding enemy ATG. And if you dived too deep or got snare, you always be dead. While su-76 have +10 range, it have significantly less hp that make survival less even less possible that for stug.
You only must remember - don't dive with stug, just look to DPS2 and chance to hit while on moving. Stug for static defense. As su-76. |
as it should, i mean su 76 cost almost half of the p 4 ,comes earlier and can kite from 60 range, stug has 10 less range cost more both tech and unit, I would expect to counter medium tank that cost equal or slightly more when they rush it form the front as it's its only role (at least the su 76 has barrage)
the su 76 can be safe from harm with it's 60 range (even from the stug) while the stug with 50 range will have to be in a worst position and even be out range form su 76 and other TD
Main role of TD - fight against enemy mediums and LV, not other TD. You never counter Elefant or JT by SU-85, you use many t-34's for it and off-map. You never counter SU-152 by stug, you use panther for it or several p4 with offmap.
But if you insist that STUG must will get buff "because he fight against early accesable su-76 with 60 range". Than SU-76 must will get buff, because it will be fight against STUG. And please, told me when SU got SU-76? IRC, right after T-70 (no one never will build SU-76 as start unit, if opponent equal). If we will be look to situations where SU build SU-76 as start unit, then we must consider situation when OST rush to T3, not build T1 and T2, when in that case STUG will arrive?
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Okay, i edit table - change target size of stug and su-76 to 17 and now in table OKW P4 use stats from vet3, not vet 5 (all values were recalculated accordingly).
Look on new sheet "Lifetime". The most interesting is last column - remain HP. Looks like stug against any ally medium very cost effective. While SU-76, only waste of resources, it always dies. With vet situation becomes even worse, while vet0 SU-76 against vet0 P4 have few chances (i would be say - which RNG better).
New Table of battle effectivness STUG and SU-76 against enemy mediums
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2 thing
1 okw p4 is actually a premium medium (like t34-85 and easy 8) as it cost 140 fuel
2 why does okw p4 get's 2.6 reload time at vet 3 ? i mean it has the same reload bonus as ost p4 of 30% ?
stug target size is 17 not 20
and could u try to calculate raw dps with 55 range and a cut to reload speed like 10-20%
btw consider that the stug comes a tier (around 50 fuel) later than su 76 and cost more (15 more fuel)
same for p4 it cost 10 more fuel than Cromwell and 30 more than t 34 76
edit: ask vipper or other calc expert if everything is alright, im not good with excel
1. About OKW P4 i already said - it can be seen in every game OKW, while t-3485,E8 only in doctrines.
2. Vet3 means ACE (for OKW vet 5). It vet 5 actually.
I used stats from coh2db and recent patchnote (for pen and acc of SU-76), if target size is 17 i will change it.
Stug comes 0,5 tier later (some players give to T3 OST 3.5 value). But ally mediums comes to Tier4, while SU-76 comes on t3. We have equal situation, when t3.5 Stug fights against T4 mediums and t3 Su-76 against T3.5 medium. Any disagree? T-3476, Sherman, Cromwell comes more later than stug too (if we consider that both player have equal fuel income and no one didn't have both fuel points).
About mediums - read notes, OST P4 not bad at all. And it cost, more than right as for me. In theory we could make the same comparsion between mediums.
Yes i could recalculate for 55 range. I'll make new column.
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Some notes:
Compare only equal vetted enemies: vet0 medium vs vet0 TD, vet3 (vet5 for OKW) medium vs vet3 TD.
Tweaks for STUG 60 made only for one stat at time - damage, cost fuel, ROF. If ROF was changed, it means other stats were still as for current STUG.
IMHO STUG beat SU-76 (in battles against enemy mediums) in every possible ways in terms of DPS, i don't think it need 60 range or buffs. More obvious that SU-76 need serious boost to find itself role in game.
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