Profile of Lago

Could surely be an option, although I'm not sure if that'd work with certain interactions. For example if it'd have to rely on all of the crew being stationary as a check to apply the camo, moving a vehicle past it (forcing some of the crew to move) could unwillingly reveal it.

That's an acceptable tradeoff to be free of infuriating shift-queue-proof stealth toggles.

I don't think there's much that can be done about that, without making the StuG too cost efficient.

Bear with me on this one.

The StuG and the Panther have the same range and similar reloads, but the StuG is half the price. That means double StuG has twice the damage output of a Panther against an unarmoured target, correct?

Imagine the StuG has the penetration of a Panther, but only does 80 damage. Now double StuG and single Panther do the same damage, right?

Which is better against an IS-2?

I don't agree. In the bigger picture the StuG is there to handle mediums that the Panzer IV can't handle (Sherman, Sherman premiums, T-34-85) or it's a way to out-resourcemanage your oponent by nullifying/destroying a more expensive vehicle with a cheaper vehicle (or just to save your ass when you're behind on resources). At least it will be after the patch, when it's a bit more reliable versus mediums (buffed traverse will stop it from being run around so easily).

I think the StuG/Panther interplay is balanced well for medium tanks.

The StuG will do a little better than the Panzer IV against mediums for 30 FU less. It can also tackle premium mediums that beat the Panzer IV, like the upgunned Shermans and the T-34/85. Plus it's cheap: you can get one out fast when you need it.

The Panther has the damage output of one StuG for the cost of two, but it's slathered in armour, has twice the health, has weak but not negligible AI performance and very importantly has a turret.

A Panther does to mediums what a Panzer IV does to T-70s. Two StuGs put out more damage, but they can't hunt tanks the way a Panther can.

There are benefits to both. The StuG holds its own against more expensive units. The Panther butchers anything cheaper than it that isn't a dedicated tank destroyer, and even then it has the edge within 50 range.



Then the heavies rock up and, as usual, ruin everything.

The StuGs do approximately fuck all to the heavy: they can't penetrate it from the front and as casemates they can't flank it. I've thrown three of the things at one once and watched them struggle to do half damage at point blank before they all get killed.

The Panther can penetrate heavies from the front and flank them if it wants.

Unless heavies are off the table, why would you ever risk StuGs?

StuG definitely shouldn't get a penetration increase because it'd be way too cost effective if it could take on heavies. It's a medium tank killer and it shouldn't be anything more for how cheap it is. Ostheer has the Pak 40s that can quite reliably hold back heavies anyway.

The Jagdpanzer IV is fine imo, OKW doesn't have any trouble transitioning into a Panther because they have the tier up anyway. They can also get doctrinal HEAT to counter doctrinal heavies. And the Jagdpanzer IV has really good ROF and veterancy on top of 60 range to make it somewhat decent against heavies anyway.

But does either faction need a dedicated medium tank killer when their own mediums already have the edge?

Between them the Panzer IV and Panther cover everything you'd want a tank to do. The Panzer IV handles infantry and can tackle every vehicle under 110 FU. The Panther has weaker but not neglible AI and can handle a little over its weight in everything else.

The StuG and JPIV just seem, well, redundant. I could see them as cheaper alternatives to the Panther that lack the mobility, durability, turret and anti-infantry capability, but they need penetration for that.

They're not bad in their current state, but they are redundant. If you removed them from the faction it wouldn't make much of a difference.

The StuG and JPIV have pretty low penetration values for dedicated tank destroyers. They're an improvement over Panzer IV rounds, but they don't cut it against heavies.

As a result, pretty much every game where a heavy tank is on the table OST/OKW goes for a 185 FU Panther.

Would it be an overall improvement if the StuG and JPIV got some sort of penetration buff (either a flat buff or through a timed ability like the Jackson) to allow them to handle heavies? It'd create a second option: go for a cheaper dedicated AT vehicle that requires support.

Does this open up more interesting builds, or do people prefer always fighting/using Panthers?