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Thread: M36 Jackson10 Jun 2019, 11:54 AM Jump back to quoted post10 Jun 2019, 11:42 AMVipper Yes the M36 should be able to fight the Panther and heavier. On the other hand it should not be able to Penetrate the Panther with 100% chance to hit and penetrate at range 60 nor it should be able to completely shut down the PzIV. Superior allied infatry and TDs that can penetrate axis armor from range 60 is bad designed that reduce the diversity of built orders. The Jackson vs Panther dynamic's already fine. The Panther has the edge within 50 metres, so the Jackson has to leverage its extra range. It's a lot like SU-76 vs Panzer IV. A token penetration adjustment adds annoying low probability bounces without making the Panther meaningfully stronger. A more substantial adjustment would give the Panther a universal edge, turning it into a vehicle that counters the entire USF motor pool. And the shutting down the Panzer IV thing is total bullshit. The Panzer IV is a generalist tank: it can still fight infantry. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: StuG and JPIV Penetration10 Jun 2019, 11:33 AM I've got a question: where does this fast rate of fire for the JPIV thing come from? Looking through the stats it's pretty similar to the Jackson and SU-85. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: StuG and JPIV Penetration10 Jun 2019, 11:25 AM Jump back to quoted post10 Jun 2019, 10:58 AMKatitof They have 170 far penetration. Their intended targets have 160 armor. JP4 DOES self spot. They are either much more durable or incomparably cheaper from allied counterparts. I'm convinced. I still think the IS-2's design is dumb, but I can put up with that. As you said, it'll stop showing up every damn game when they tie it to tech. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: StuG and JPIV Penetration10 Jun 2019, 09:48 AM Jump back to quoted post10 Jun 2019, 09:22 AMKatitof Well, it gets up to 500 for axis units and they have multiple of them. Also, you're well aware that heavies will end up on tech sooner then later, so its kind of pointless to buff stug to deal with a unit its not supposed to, because there is a problem that is going to be solved soon. 525, actually. IS-2's like "hey look at my sweet armour stat that screws up the tank destroyer balance" and the Jagdtiger's like "hold my beer". I think all these armour values are dumb. OKW is by far the worst offender. Tying heavies to tech will end heavy stalls, but high armour remains a problem for balancing tank destroyers. Especially casemates. Jump back to quoted post10 Jun 2019, 09:24 AMblvckdream This is just wrong. If you consider price, tech and timing you will realise Stugs do well vs Churchills + it´s different variants, Pershing, KV1 and KV2. A pair of Stugs is very powerful especially with TWP. Yes they are not the answer to T70 into IS2 stall tactics but that's the beauty of COH2. Not every unit is right for every situation. But every unit can always do something. Even the Panther can go kill some infantry. The StuG doesn't need to be better than the Panther, but if it's going to be an exclusively AT unit then it shouldn't be deadweight. That's an idea, actually. You could raise the cost of the pintle back to 60 and double the damage. That'd give it slightly worse AI than the Panther. By no means good, but actually useful. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: StuG and JPIV Penetration10 Jun 2019, 09:18 AM Jump back to quoted post10 Jun 2019, 09:11 AMKatitof A one, single, very specific, limited to 1 at a time, in 2 doctrines heavy tank. Pair of StuGs fare very well against any other heavy in game. Perhaps I'm biased by the unrelenting stream of IS-2 stallers I've had to put up with since the last patch (and which this patch will just make worse), but I still think 375 is a stupid armour value for any unit. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: SOV: Move T-34/76 to T3 and make T-34/85 non-doc/T410 Jun 2019, 09:11 AM Jump back to quoted post10 Jun 2019, 00:32 AMStug life it's still 90 fu, i would go for, 140/110/90 Those numbers seem fine. The close pen of 140 is the important one. In: COH2 Gameplay
Thread: StuG and JPIV Penetration10 Jun 2019, 09:07 AM Jump back to quoted post10 Jun 2019, 06:28 AMblvckdream The way Panthers and Stugs/JP4s are balanced right now is as close to perfect as it gets IMO. The only thing I would change is give the JP4 a vet1 timed ability to trade ROF for penetration. That would be fair considering it's price tag. The Stug on the other hand is totally fine. If you do that, the StuG holds the special honour of being the only unit in the game that becomes completely useless if the opponent goes for a heavy tank. Every other AT unit has either: A: The penetration to damage heavies from the front. B: A turret, meaning it can shoot the rear armour. or C: Additional functionality beyond exploding tanks. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: StuG and JPIV Penetration9 Jun 2019, 21:17 PM Jump back to quoted post9 Jun 2019, 20:56 PMKatitof You want stronger StuG and JP4? You have to give up something on the panther. No problem. Swap the penetration values over. If the Panther can't penetrate frontally, it can flank. It can circlestrafe. It can go kill some infantry with its okay-ish anti-infantry capability. The StuG and JPIV are casemates. Penetrating frontally is all they can do. When they can't, they become worthless. Even the SU-76 has an anti-infantry ability to fall back on. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: StuG and JPIV Penetration9 Jun 2019, 20:47 PM Jump back to quoted post9 Jun 2019, 20:39 PMSkysTheLimit That's valid. If we're talking about bringing the armour down of all of the "super-heavies" or whatever you wanna call the over 300s, I can see your point. IS2 on its own is not the culprit here The IS-2 is the main culprit insofar as the StuG and JPIV are concerned. Jump back to quoted post9 Jun 2019, 20:39 PMSkysTheLimit Cause they can fire from beyond the range of most of their targets instead? P4 is only more effective when you spam it. If you try to flank/strafe with just one it'll probably die or get snared before the IS2 goes down I'm talking a similar investment of resources. That's one Panther, two StuGs, two Panzer IVs, three Pumas. I'm not suggesting a single StuG should counter an IS-2. In: COH2 Balance
Thread: StuG and JPIV Penetration9 Jun 2019, 20:41 PM Jump back to quoted post9 Jun 2019, 20:30 PMblvckdream A 90 fuel TD from T3 is not supposed to fight against a 230fuel heavy tank. Name me one anti-tank vehicle other than the StuG and JPIV that doesn't have either A: The penetration to reliably damage a heavy from the front. B: The mobility and penetration to reliably damage a heavy from the rear. C: Vet 0 secondary utility that lets it do something else useful (such as the SU-76's artillery barrage). Jump back to quoted post9 Jun 2019, 20:30 PMblvckdream Why would anyone ever build an IS2 if Stugs could penetrate it at a high%? Because you don't build a generalist heavy tank to fight StuGs? You build it to obliterate infantry and mediums. It does that regardless of if StuGs can fight it or not. In: COH2 Balance