This was because US tanks had stabilizers that assisted in firing on the move, a feature unique to them.
No, this was done because the Sherman in the game back then was significantly worse than most other medium tanks it faced (its anti-armour performance was close to the T-34/76 without being as cheap). The price on the Sherman couldn't be lowered, because it was primarily meant to be an Infantry Support Tank, which is why it has such highly effective (against soft targets) HE shells. So the balancing idea was to enable the Sherman to fire on the move with more reliable accuracy, in order to enable flanking strategies (this is supposed to work together with the Radio Net passive upon vet1, so that a group of flanking Shermans gains some massive firepower buffs, that would otherwise lead to incredibly OP situations if done through normal buffs).
There is no realistic base for this, as even the (by today's standards) primitive gyro-stabilisation used on Shermans didn't allow the tank to fire on the move. It "merely" allowed the tank to acquire its target while moving and thus reduced the time standing still (and presenting an easier target). Shermans still couldn't be fired properly on the move, especially when travelling cross-country - that technology wasn't available until the '70s with the combination of fire solution computers and modern gun stabilisation. |
The Panzer IV series in this game is already constantly on the backfoot, even against what the Allies can currently field. Sure, the OKW Panzer IV is notably better off than its Ostheer equivalent, but that doesn't help it much in the face of massive cost differences compared to performance differences.
This. Axis don't get a power spike when they field their first medium tanks, which really they should do after having to be on the backfoot vs allied light tanks (every allied faction has a light tank that hurts infantry and other vehicles. Axis do not)
Instead, when it arrives, it instantly has to deal with the Cromwell and Sherman. The Soviets seem more balanced in this but the SU76 can stop the PIV from pushing into territory to take back ground lost because of the T70.
In 2v2 it always feels like wave after wave of allied power spikes with no power spike from the Germans. When the Axis do get their great tanks, the field is already full of mediums that can deal with them because of their numbers. (and don't forget the resource gap that's a result of Allied early-game dominance)
This is where it becomes iffy. The Panzer IV is not meant to be a power spike, by its very design. It is there as a necessary part of a diversified army, to fill the gap the StuG can't fill.
What you describe, is what I have on multiple occasions compared to the way initiative works in the father of modern strategy games, Kriegsspiel. The idea is that a force without (or with inferior) offensive capabilities, either in terms of strategy or in terms of ability, has no (or less) initiative and is thus forced to react to its opponents's actions. From this follows, that the terms of an engagement can be seized by one side, taking the other side's ability to apply a strategy of their own. It's like a good shuttlecock player making the other player run constantly after the bird, without moving much himself.
How does that apply to COH2? Well, initiative is present in the way assaults work. From the strategical position, any army is generally able to mount an assault (as that depends on the player). But the capability to do so varies significantly across the different armies. And that's what makes the current Ostheer gameplay so boring: There is no offensive capability here, forcing the Ostheer player to either massively outwork his opponent, or have the terms of the game dictated to him. That doesn't mean Ostheer is weak and needs buffs per se (outside of the current balance issues), it means that playing the faction feels unrewarding, because you have to be much more capable to navigate the battle into a certain direction - something for example a USF player can achieve with significantly less input. It makes a faction feel harder to play, despite it having powerful tools at its disposal (and especially the USF faction design is actually meant to mitigate that effect, by having some units require more micro to work well).
The solution here is not to buff the Panzer IV, I heavily recommend against that, but to adjust its opponents. That can start with a general rework of for example movement penalties to accuracy, which would actually require the StuG for example to be nerfed in that regard, to differentiate it even more from the Panzer IV.
P.S.: Fixed some translation issues. |
I said "SOMETHINGS" not evrything, look games like age of empires 16 years older and still well balance
Well, then you naturally have to explain the reasoning as to what is equalised and why. Otherwise we would have to call that adjustment the "Arbitrary Balance Patch" (which is a cool name, I have to admit). As I said, the system itself is not free of flaws, but there are significantly easier ways to fix that, rather than reworking the whole teching structure. That would of course require quite a lot of research into whether those teching structures are actually as broken and/or one-sided as you make them out to be, because these changes have massive implications by their very nature. |
Careful, you are passing on to a thin stretch of ice. Wanting changes for any Axis faction that might have a positive outcome for them is the strictest of taboos around here.
So edgy...
point is that as SU, you pay just for AT nade, where as OST you pay to be able to use Faust on your greens and osttruppens, but at same time, you are getting access to build 3 types of units....that is the difference....so, again, comparing cost of a side tech with cost of a tier is so funny and wrong.
But then again Soviets don't have to do research before teching up (not relevant for Tier I of course, because there is no Battlephase 0), which allows for more strategic diversity by completely foregoing a tier without having to pay partially for that tier nonetheless. SO UNBALANCED! Oh wait, it is actually simply asymmetrical balance, which in this case works out relatively fine.
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Maybe give the soviets free upgrade but lock it to tiers like Osther :/, somethings must be equal i think if we want balance
By that logic we would have to lock the Lieutenant, Captain, and Major behind extra payments, because no other faction gets units essentially for free with teching. And of course that would require the removal of the FlaK on the Schwerer Panzer HQ for OKW as well (with the medics and repair pioneers having been adjusted already).
While we're at it, all factions should also have five-man infantry squads, remote weapon upgrades, linear teching, etc. pp.
Do you see the problem here? There are already significant differences in terms of teching linearity and teching costs to make up for the differences in side-teching (there's of course also the timing aspect, especially with Ostheer having to research and build a teching level), so how about taking a look at these first before adjusting the teching structure itself? |
KV-1 was also a predecessor of the T34 and IS series of tanks. I always thought that the KV1 fit coming out around the time of T70s and SU76s.
In terms of Soviet tank doctrine, the KV-1 has nothing to do with either the T-34 or the IS-series (that claim is similar abstruse as claiming that the Sturmgewehr was conceptionally some sort of predecessor to the AK-series). Sure, the armament was similar to the T-34 for most of the time of its existence, but being heavily armoured meant a completely different usage profile. Meanwhile, the IS-series was used as a more modern form of the old assault gun. With a tank of that capability, the necessity to mount heavy guns to awkward or casemated chassis was gone - the IS-series could mount guns that served the same purpose, while also being able to withstand more firepower, while also being more mobile. The trade-off to medium tanks were cost, technical complexity, and mobility, which is why the concept was made superfluous by the idea of the Main Battle Tank.
Back to topic: This idea is impossible to properly balance. The Panzer IV series in this game is already constantly on the backfoot, even against what the Allies can currently field. Sure, the OKW Panzer IV is notably better off than its Ostheer equivalent, but that doesn't help it much in the face of massive cost differences compared to performance differences.
The T-34/85 as the Soviet standard tank has been discussed regularly in multiple forums over the past couple years, and in the end the result was mostly the same: It would be impossible to balance against the then useless T-34/76 - regardless of whether the T-34/76 would then end up in those very same doctrines that now contain the T-34/85. The availability of that choice would be meaningless, because the game's demands would always favour the T-34/85, thus actually limiting strategical diversity.
Then there's also the problem (especially with the US) of how to balance these upgrades into the asymmetrical gameplay: Riflemen are massively superior to all other standard infantry, and that has a very specific reason. Suddenly overturning that reason would require a significant reconsideration of how USF early game works, and suddenly we have another Osther/OKW faction - I don't think anyone would like that.
P.S.:
It's "America" not murica and it's "Captain" not capatain. Please have a little bit more respect for my country, I never disrespected yours or have seen another one of my fellow countrymen here do the same.
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This is like the debates about USF and OKW flak gun and 'free' teching.
That said, there are some significant imbalances there. For example OKW doesn't get free medics and free repair pioneers with their teching anymore, or that the lack of side-teching for Ostheer barely counters the effects that the cheaper and faster teching with "free" units of USF have on the gameplay (getting direct access to snares instead of needing veterancy for that is barely countered by the free forward retreat point the Major offers, for example - especially as later on these teching differences heavily outweigh the side-tech costs).
A lot of that is of course really complicated to depict properly (making Gren MG 42s a side-tech would lead to massive problems in tech pacing for Ostheer - even worse than it is - as their core infantry doesn't work without those MGs - they are not a strategic option, they have to be upgraded in order to have any hope against other infantry).
There's also the argument that sideteching increases strategical diversity, by allowing for different strategies through tech-rushes for examples. This hardly works for some factions, as the teching costs are still (even in the current WBP) massively fucked up in favour of certain factions, not to mention that the teching structure itself heavily favours some factions over others.
The biggest problem here is the scope of that imbalance. So many things tie into this, that it is virtually impossible to correct even small mistakes without creating even worse problems in other areas (or even in the same area). That is why the OKW medic system is so fucked (especially if the WBP idea of locking the 251/17 behind medic tech goes through) and is in dire need of a rework (again), because it in no shape or form is a fairly adjusted investment - especially as it is basically not optional, considering the ridiculous ammo drain of health packs and the manpower bleed suffered if a player ignores healing. |
With the autocannon being an upgrade now, which costs 120 munitions and requires the BP3 research, the allied butt buddy is assured that it won't be used agressesively against him. [...] This should help against T70/Stuart base-rushes and other similar unpleasant experiences for the average player.
Error, error, does not compute. How the fuck is this supposed to help against anything a T-70 or Stuart can do, if the upgrade comes at a time when neither the 222 nor the T-70 or Stuart are still around? Has anyone here even looked at the timings of Ostheer teching? Or the costs? Almost nobody builds Tier IV (and thus researches BP3) anymore outside of 4v4 matches, because it is horribly overpriced for what it offers. Having to go that far and having to pay for that upgrade on top of that sounds like locking a photo of a gold coin in a vault and putting armed guards around it.
The only thing this will do, is lock Ostheer even more into StuG Es and Mobile Defence to have a chance against light vehicles - and I'd rather see the 222 stay weak against infantry and light vehicles alike (unless doubled), instead of seeing the StuG E meta strengthened.
P.S.: And don't get me started on the MG changes there, this basically ensures that the 221 can't do jackshit against anything (especially as the MG in the underlying mod is still broken beyond belief) and doesn't gain veterancy anymore... |
Penetration should go down for "medium tank" destroyers Su-76, stug, M10.
Again, the StuG is not a tank destroyer, it's an assault gun. That difference shows, as of all the vehicles you just lumped together, the StuG is the best performing against infantry in general (the SU-76's barrage excluded). Throwing especially these three vastly different vehicles into the same pot (especially as the M10 is about as problematic as a stain on the sole of my shoes) ignores the necessary delicateness required to actually balance anything in this game.
Increasing the accuracy might require increasing the fuel cost a tad. Like 135, if we are talking about about %75 and up.
This is actually my less preferred method of balancing. That said, the problem is similar to the formerly low target size of the Cromwell: It shouldn't have existed to begin with and the fact that it is shows a clear lack of understanding into the game's mechanics and how they actually play out, on the side of Relic (which is kind of ironic, considering the created this game).
Back to the problem at hand, the Cromwell should have never started out with higher moving accuracy. It has the proper penetration to not need to flank, or at least when doing so, it is far better off than any other medium tank even without that accuracy. People called the target size correction on the Cromwell a "huge nerf", when in fact it was simply brought to the same standards as all vehicles in its class. If the accuracy adjustment is also a big nerf, then I'm wondering how the Ostheer Panzer IV could even remotely be considered as useful in any way.
That isn't a bad idea, but the Cromwell is the only unit in need of that treatment IMO.
No, as it stands by now, the Sherman got buffed to the point that the Panzer IV struggles against it. Sure, you could always go for StuGs, but you can't do both at the same time (not with those fuel costs). And that's showing the problem of generalist versus specialised units, again. One way to avoid that would be buffing the Panzer IV, but that's the bad option because it puts the StuG in a weird position (especially as we can't buff the StuG any further without it becoming OP). This is the Sturmpanzer (Brummbär) problem all over again: No matter how much you buff the StuPa, it will never be worth it unless you make it OP, because it is the wrong tool for the wrong job at the wrong time.
P.S.: To further iterate on that, re-evaluation of the moving accuracy of all tank-fighting vehicles (assault guns, tank destroyers and tanks) should be done. That way we could further solidify the defensive role for example of the StuG and SU-76, by actually giving it an even worse movement penalty (although we would have to find a way first to prevent turning as being interpreted by the game as moving, otherwise its turret-less design would be far too problematic).
That could also serve as a good solution to the above-mentioned problem of the identity crisis going on between StuG and Panzer IV, aside from what we have now (slightly different AT performance and range). |
Can't even have a civilised thread about a damn balance patch without going after each other's throats or brining vcoh players back in the equasion lol
What did you expect? As much as I hate their balance efforts over the past two years, with Relic we actually got the developer we deserved. And with "we" I mean the entire COH2 community. |