For the Love Of God M1 Pack Howitzer

Bad idea. Balance team already tried to reduce auto-attack power without increasing the barrage damage and we got the suppression ability which was worst.

Removing the auto-attack and increasing the barrage's power is a crazy idea on its own because its suppose to make of the pakhowi a dedicated artillery unit which would be mobile so difficult to counter when it is on cooldown.

Imagine we remove the auto-attack and double the number of shells (which is quite a fair trade imo). PakHowi would become completely OP vs structures such as bunkers or OKW trucks, or pak43.
What I mean is if you switch the pakhowi from auto-attack with a weak barrage to weak auto-attack (or no auto-attack) to strong barrage other problems will rise with the pamphlet of complains following it.

The unit has been design around auto-attack because there is no way to vet it with the barrage at the moment which mean that it does what it is supposed to.

I think the unit is balanced at the moment, it can only target one unit, it has a small arc of fire forcing it ot reposition quite often and can't defend itself vs flanking. It counter static play but is much less effective vs moving targets. And yes it doesn't quite a good damage vs infantry without wiping them unless they are already low in health.

1- This was still on Relic old balance team and you are miss informing people when you mention the era when ISG/Howie was given suppression on both, AA and barrage.
This was still pre-rework OKW btw (so no MG34).

The intention was fixing "blobbing". AA was not reduced and was one of the reasons the ISG was one of the most obnoxious units to be created by Relic.

2- Artillery units demolishing structures and static defenses... With the exception of OKW base buildings, if a single one of them proves to be too effective against them, that can be easily adjusted with decreased damage modifiers against it. Scatter and FoW penaltie are other ways to adjust it as well.

3- Is the unit really design around AA? It unlocks WP barrage. It unlocks Heat shells barrage. It always had a smaller AA range compared to barrage. Yes, with the small amount of shells it fired on barrage, it would be nigh impossible to vet the unit. That's why i always said they should improve barrage and nerf/remove AA. Even more so that they added a mortar to the roster.

4- If the unit had 120mm mortar values in AA, then the unit wouldn't be good against mobile units. It has stronger scatter and reload values which makes it deadly by comparison. The whole point is that ALL mortar units had been nerf so they are weaker against mobile units nowadays.

If you take a look at the changelog, the unit received certain buffs which might had not been warranted considered the power level at which indirect fire was brought up to.

I just remembered the Soviet 120mm mortar. I literally forgot it even existed. Haven´t seen one in months. How does the balance team think about Soviet 120mm mortar and Pak Howi performance in comparison? Balanced? These two units are pretty similiar in role and cost. Difference being the Soviet 120mm being doctrinal.

If coh2db stats are up to date:
-AA RoF:
Howie: 9.94s
120mm: 14.15
OH 81mm: 10.81s

-Scatter (Angle/Distance Ratio/Distance offset)
Howie: 6/0.1/8
120mm: 10/0.1/10
82mm: 10/0.08/8

-AoE (Radius, Distance near, Mid, Far)
Howie: 5, 1.5 (68dmg), 3 (40), 4.5 (20)
120mm: 6, 1.5, 3, 4.5
82mm: 4, 1, 2, 3

Let me explain and add some bits. The most important value is the distance near(1.5). All indirect fire were made so they can be less wipe in full health models, so unless a straight direct hit, they are not doing lethal dmg anymore to 80HP models.

While the value difference might be small, let's remember that it's the radius and any incremental is practically double the area.

Also, for some reason, the 120mm barrage is less lethal than the AA (1.1/3.5/4.5)

Why does USF continue to have to pay a price with increased micro concentration simply because OST wants to never move their units out of cover? I understand asymmetric balance but its hilarious playing a game with USF and then playing an OST one right after. Legit feels like you could fall asleep playing the germans. USF would have no good artillery until major(!!!) when the scott could potentially come out but now you're spending fuel to get a decent IDF unit while axis GrWs and LeiGs walk all over your team weapons. To me this conversation is a non starter and we're only having this conversation because the literal same user keeps making the exact same thread over and over.

ALL early/mid game indirect units were made weaker on auto attack and in general. I don't see why the Pack Howie shouldn't follow the same and made it so it's better in barrage and weaker in AA. Specially to differentiate it from the cheaper mortar.

If the enemy has an OKW on their team that pretty much negates all support weapon play for a start.

If a OKW Schwerer HQ rework was possible (half tech), i wonder if the Stuka could see a rework as well.

Wild idea incoming:

-Reduce cost to mortar HT levels.
-Remove HE barrage and instead replace it with flame barrage instead (improve if necessary) no muni cost.
-After unlocking first half of Flak HQ, you can upgrade the Stuka to it's previous version for the difference in cost, to unlock HE barrage.

remove auto fire, a bit more range, less cold down on the barrage, tada now usf has a mobile weaker LFH

Even with 2 pack howies, it's a pita to dig out germans in 4v4

It destroys moving units incredibly well...

The problem is, the pack howie basically hard-counters all of Ost's units with nearly zero user input. The Ost mortar is good, but as with all IDF units, it's best against static infantry - which USF rarely uses. Every single USF infantry unit, short of M1919 upgraded rifles, can fire on the move with little to no problem. Compare this to Ost, which is based entirely around static units: The MG42 is a core unit (unlike the .50), the Gren LMG needs to be stationary to fire, the early/mid AT role is filled by the PAK (compared to stuart, zooks) due to Muni cost, etc.

To counter all of these units, all the USF player needs to do is sit a pack-howie within range, and let it auto-fire. There's zero player input for an incredible amount of power.

Imagine if OST had a unit that auto-marked nearby moving infantry with +33% RA, forcing allied infantry to remain static; it would be absurdly OP. This is basically how disruptive the Pack-Howie/US-MHT is to OST play, except there's also doing MP-drain and squad wiping.

Ost mortar literally does that but ok.

Yes, USF infantry can fire on the move pretty well but they still lose DPS when moving and the irony of the complaint still stands.

Before you talk about how much stronger the pack howie is than the mortar, the mortar comes much earlier, can retreat, is like 100mp cheaper, and doesn't lock you out of getting mgs without backteching. Pack howie also is pretty vulnerable to counterfire because it's got 3 guys clustered right around the gun (so lucky AoE shots will do a lot of damage or potentially decrew it outright lol). At least there is a counter; try playing as brits vs double leigs.

Bad idea. Balance team already tried to reduce auto-attack power without increasing the barrage damage and we got the suppression ability which was worst.

Removing the auto-attack and increasing the barrage's power is a crazy idea on its own because its suppose to make of the pakhowi a dedicated artillery unit which would be mobile so difficult to counter when it is on cooldown.

Imagine we remove the auto-attack and double the number of shells (which is quite a fair trade imo). PakHowi would become completely OP vs structures such as bunkers or OKW trucks, or pak43.
What I mean is if you switch the pakhowi from auto-attack with a weak barrage to weak auto-attack (or no auto-attack) to strong barrage other problems will rise with the pamphlet of complains following it.

I think the unit is balanced at the moment, it can only target one unit, it has a small arc of fire forcing it ot reposition quite often and can't defend itself vs flanking. It counter static play but is much less effective vs moving targets. And yes it doesn't quite a good damage vs infantry without wiping them unless they are already low in health.

The unit has been design around auto-attack because there is no way to vet it with the barrage at the moment which mean that it does what it is supposed to.

I saying reduce the cooldown on the barrage so that it can be used more frequently. All that does is move some of its power from passive (auto fire) to active (requires player input)
The increased barrage frequency (which has larger range) simply increases the skill cap of the unit.
Making it into a mini howitzer

It's the closest USF can get to the nondoctrinal rocket artillery role (countering blobs and large concentrations of team weapons). The M8 Scott, while very annoying and good in numbers and dealing damage over time, doesn't have incredible DPS/DPM or alpha damage (although it does sometimes if you get really lucky with the scatter) either, nor the range and FoW scatter. Flat out nerfing either one of these would possibly (or even probably) leave the USF vulnerable to the basic strategy of turtling as they do not have any other stock alpha damage indirect fire piece like the Stuka, Panzerwerfer or Katyusha to support their pushes or defensive line with.

Therefor I do consider the Pack Howitzer's role in delivering high DPS indirect fire to be crutch. I would personally for both the Pack Howie and the M8 Scott decrease autofire performance while making the barrage slightly better (faster cooldown etc.) to their shift power into the micro department.

Rocket artillery's for clearing out late-game team weapon walls though. The Pack Howitzer and M8 Scott serve a strategic role much more akin to that of the Sniper: long range manpower bleed. They don't have the firepower to attack team weapons in the back line and are much more effective autofiring at infantry squads in the front.

If you wanted the Pack Howitzer to serve a similar role to rocket artillery, the Land Mattress is the unit to emulate in my opinion.

4- If the unit had 120mm mortar values in AA, then the unit wouldn't be good against mobile units. It has stronger scatter and reload values which makes it deadly by comparison. The whole point is that ALL mortar units had been nerf so they are weaker against mobile units nowadays.



If coh2db stats are up to date:
-AA RoF:
Howie: 9.94s
120mm: 14.15
OH 81mm: 10.81s

-Scatter (Angle/Distance Ratio/Distance offset)
Howie: 6/0.1/8
120mm: 10/0.1/10
82mm: 10/0.08/8

-AoE (Radius, Distance near, Mid, Far)
Howie: 5, 1.5 (68dmg), 3 (40), 4.5 (20)
120mm: 6, 1.5, 3, 4.5
82mm: 4, 1, 2, 3

Let me explain and add some bits. The most important value is the distance near(1.5). All indirect fire were made so they can be less wipe in full health models, so unless a straight direct hit, they are not doing lethal dmg anymore to 80HP models.

While the value difference might be small, let's remember that it's the radius and any incremental is practically double the area.

Also, for some reason, the 120mm barrage is less lethal than the AA (1.1/3.5/4.5)

At some point you'll have to define if it is a mortar or not a mortar. You can't ask for the PakHowi to be a mortar that has 3 shells barrage, very long cooldown and can't retreat while also costing 100 manpower more and be locked being Captain tech.

180mm has it use to saturate an area with its barrage like any other mortar, pakhowi don't. You can't compare its AA statistic with other mortars because that's not a mortar atm, you need AA to vet it and without good AA stats it is just a piece of garbage.

Pakhowi is a reverse concept of Priest/Left/Ml20 etc... an howitzer on AA. Its not a sniper, it doesn't kill full 4 men health squad, its AA is not so deadly vs team weapon in the sense of its not going to wipe it with AA (or you really need to be afk) and the barrage give you also room to avoid a wipe with its only 3 rounds.

So if you decide to transform it into something, that's not going to be a mortar-like, because USF already has a mortar, that's not going to be a sniper unit because USF already has the Scott, that's going to be a howitzer (which it is in fact) and my guess is that people complaining about it today are not going to like it either because those people complaining about it are mostly static players on which a pure howitzer will have a greater impact.
Instead of suffering models wipes on their squads but with enough time to react between 2 AA shells, they're really going to suffer squads wipe on the barrage the same way Priest/Ml20/left etc.. are doing it today.

Or the idea is to make it completely useless, which is also a solution.

At some point you'll have to define if it is a mortar or not a mortar.

If it's a mortar, leave it alone.

If it's meant to serve as a rocket artillery equivalent, make it like the Land Mattress. Remove the auto-attack and give it a powerful, wide area, extended duration barrage that forces the enemy to reposition.

If it's a mortar, leave it alone.

If it's meant to serve as a rocket artillery equivalent, make it like the Land Mattress. Remove the auto-attack and give it a powerful, wide area, extended duration barrage that forces the enemy to reposition.

it should work like a LFEH, more range no AA, extensive barrage with modest CD

Rocket artillery's for clearing out late-game team weapon walls though. The Pack Howitzer and M8 Scott serve a strategic role much more akin to that of the Sniper: long range manpower bleed. They don't have the firepower to attack team weapons in the back line and are much more effective autofiring at infantry squads in the front.

If you wanted the Pack Howitzer to serve a similar role to rocket artillery, the Land Mattress is the unit to emulate in my opinion.

If it's meant to serve as a rocket artillery equivalent, make it like the Land Mattress. Remove the auto-attack and give it a powerful, wide area, extended duration barrage that forces the enemy to reposition.

That's pretty much how I'd envision it personally, maybe with its HEAT barrage turned into a wanabee rocket arty strike (good AOE and fast ROF), perhaps still with a mediocre auto attack (similar to ISG). But I doubt Relic would allow such an extensive overhaul.

Just stop blobbing your grens up, jesus. OST has all these new toys and a far higher win rate than USF but still there's complaint after complaint about literally every single USF indirect fire unit other than the PoS Priest. Just move your units out of the way, spread them out. Pack howi range is pathetic, and you have all these flares and sight abilities and infiltration units you can use to hard counter it. If it's late game, a single P4 shell will decrew a pack howitzer. Early game, he shouldn't have MGs unless he sunk fuel into the AAHT, so just overrun it with infantry. Hell, the OST mortar can probably even murder it.

I do ask them. Unlike some of us who just keep coming up with one unrealistic suggestion after the other.

If you are referring to my suggestions I can give you a list of my suggestion that actually make it in the game but don't think that it would be helpful and I am not sure why you would like to turn this into a personal issue. This is forum for providing feedback and that is simply what I am doing.

My point here is simply either ask Relic and quote they response here as it was done about the Tigers and do not bring them up at all.

That's pretty much how I'd envision it personally, maybe with its HEAT barrage turned into a wanabee rocket arty strike (good AOE and fast ROF), perhaps still with a mediocre auto attack (similar to ISG). But I doubt Relic would allow such an extensive overhaul.

Comments like this make little sense when you are in position to ask instead of guessing, unlike the rest of us.

1- This was still on Relic old balance team and you are miss informing people when you mention the era when ISG/Howie was given suppression on both, AA and barrage.
This was still pre-rework OKW btw (so no MG34).

The intention was fixing "blobbing". AA was not reduced and was one of the reasons the ISG was one of the most obnoxious units to be created by Relic.

2- Artillery units demolishing structures and static defenses... With the exception of OKW base buildings, if a single one of them proves to be too effective against them, that can be easily adjusted with decreased damage modifiers against it. Scatter and FoW penaltie are other ways to adjust it as well.

3- Is the unit really design around AA? It unlocks WP barrage. It unlocks Heat shells barrage. It always had a smaller AA range compared to barrage. Yes, with the small amount of shells it fired on barrage, it would be nigh impossible to vet the unit. That's why i always said they should improve barrage and nerf/remove AA. Even more so that they added a mortar to the roster.

4- If the unit had 120mm mortar values in AA, then the unit wouldn't be good against mobile units. It has stronger scatter and reload values which makes it deadly by comparison. The whole point is that ALL mortar units had been nerf so they are weaker against mobile units nowadays.

If you take a look at the changelog, the unit received certain buffs which might had not been warranted considered the power level at which indirect fire was brought up to.



If coh2db stats are up to date:
-AA RoF:
Howie: 9.94s
120mm: 14.15
OH 81mm: 10.81s

-Scatter (Angle/Distance Ratio/Distance offset)
Howie: 6/0.1/8
120mm: 10/0.1/10
82mm: 10/0.08/8

-AoE (Radius, Distance near, Mid, Far)
Howie: 5, 1.5 (68dmg), 3 (40), 4.5 (20)
120mm: 6, 1.5, 3, 4.5
82mm: 4, 1, 2, 3

Let me explain and add some bits. The most important value is the distance near(1.5). All indirect fire were made so they can be less wipe in full health models, so unless a straight direct hit, they are not doing lethal dmg anymore to 80HP models.

While the value difference might be small, let's remember that it's the radius and any incremental is practically double the area.

Also, for some reason, the 120mm barrage is less lethal than the AA (1.1/3.5/4.5)

Buffing the barrage while removing the auto attack might work. We could buff number of shells, rate of fire, and setup time.
More options could be:
1.Give rear echelon satchels to destroy bunkers and dmg battle group hq.
2.Unlock pineapples and echelon smoke for free.
3.add USf sniper
4.allow echelon to build trenches so usf have free cover immune to suppression
5. Lock ost mortar to tier 2 building.

Giving usf grenades from the start would pair well with the usf's smoke barrage. Back in the day, you could run past ost pioneers and attack their mg with help from smoke screens. Today, Your rifles will get torn to shred if you ignore pios, and you will get suppressed if you ignore the mg.

snip

Less/no mortar and more Howitzer. Player input >>> Random AA fire effectiveness.

If ALL MORTARS hadn't been nerfed, i wouldn't say shit about the Pack Howi because that's where the power level of passive indirect fire was meant to be.

All mortars had been nerfed and serve now specific purpose rather than, i have MP let's build a mortar so i can passively get bleeding on my opponent.

The problem is that it's closer to having the snipe capabilities of the ISG (rather than a normal mortar) while having the profile AoE of the 120mm.

I been running into this a lot lately, however the pak howie is a huge investment that requires time and effort on the part of the user.

My suggestion is to stay mobile and take advantage of the man power tied down by the pak

That's pretty much how I'd envision it personally, maybe with its HEAT barrage turned into a wanabee rocket arty strike (good AOE and fast ROF), perhaps still with a mediocre auto attack (similar to ISG). But I doubt Relic would allow such an extensive overhaul.

I honestly think that's a pretty cool idea, and if that were implemented then I think it'd also be cool if the normal barrage was more like a baby version of an actual howitzer barrage (even longer range, maybe slightly more damage) and just remove autofire outright. USF has a normal mortar now, so that'd be much more interesting and useful IMO and maybe a bit less frustrating to play against.

The problem with trying to make a small field arty piece is twofold.

A - that sort of indirect firepower is normally tied to commanders, which allows a certain amount of expectation and counterplay.

B - Howitzers rely on huge shell AoE and area saturation to do damage. Unless you want to severely buff the Pack Howitzer and add a fuel cost, a half size barrage is going to be awful, one way or another.

If the barrage is free, but as good as a ZiS barrage, it'll be crippling to play against.

If it's free and more or less any worse, it'll be worthless against anything besides an OKW truck, because squads can just move, it'll never vet up, and the shells won't have the AoE and spread to be a general sector threat to stand in like an ML-20 or LeFH.

I can't see any middle ground where a 300-400mp howitzer could ever be a good idea. Where the hell is that sweet spot?

Saying make it a barrage is fine, but how? What would the shell spread be, what would the reload be, how big is each shell AoE?

Less/no mortar and more Howitzer. Player input >>> Random AA fire effectiveness.

If ALL MORTARS hadn't been nerfed, i wouldn't say shit about the Pack Howi because that's where the power level of passive indirect fire was meant to be.

All mortars had been nerfed and serve now specific purpose rather than, i have MP let's build a mortar so i can passively get bleeding on my opponent.

The problem is that it's closer to having the snipe capabilities of the ISG (rather than a normal mortar) while having the profile AoE of the 120mm.

I agree on that. My conclusion is just that the OP and players alike aren't going to like the change either.
What kind of changes or problems could bring a mini mobile Lefh? ShadowModerator already mentioned the base to base harassment you can do with its 3 shells barrage on certain maps. Can't wait for a 6 or 8 shells barrage on reduced cooldown.