For the Love Of God M1 Pack Howitzer

The mechanisms of rocket artillery and the Pak howie are completely different? Jeez I never noticed that, thanks for the info!! If only I wasn't talking purely about their strategic role!

Yep but that is simply misleading. USF have stock options one of best best mortars in T0, the best auto attack howitzer, one of the most cost efficient direct fire vehicle in Scott and the arty from major.

Note how I specifically mentioned heavy indirect fire, as in something that can instantly kill or force off enemy team weapons or blobs (like rocket arty does) of which USF has only one doctrinal unit (Calliope) of which one is in a pretty bad commander, and only one stock unit (Pak howie) that even comes close to fulfilling that role. The Priest is a decent option too, but it has more of an area denial / hope for lucky wipes role. Scotts are annoying and a bit overpowered but they still need time and numbers to work.

Again misleading. The USF have plenty of option for squad wipes like flanking with high DPS infatry and HE Sherman.

Stripping the Pack Howitzer of its good AOE damage risks making the USF really bad against turtling and forcing them to pick Calliope/Priests doctrines all the time, when most other factions (OST, OKW, SOV) have stock options to deal with it.

Not really, they as mentioned one of best best mortars in T0, one of the most cost efficient direct fire vehicle in Scott,the arty from major and a number of stock option like the MHT, the Priest, the Calliope and number of devastating off maps. Actually the Pack howitzer give the edge to USF that can now actually turtle up at least as good as Ostheer.

Again pack howizter is simply to powerful for its time frame.

Yep but that is simply misleading. USF have stock options one of best best mortars in T0, the best auto attack howitzer, one of the most cost efficient direct fire vehicle in Scott and the arty from major.

There are multiple subcatagories of indirect fire because of the multiple strategic roles these catagories fulfill. The only thing that's misleading here is you pretending that Major arty is classified as indirect fire or even bringing infantry and tanks into an indirect fire comparison.

Mortars and Scotts do not instantly force off an enemy blob or turtle position like rocket artillery does. Offmaps are a completely different catagory to begin with because they are abilities that cost munitions and even then the USF doesn't have that many impressive ones.

The Pak Howitzer with its devastating AOE is the only thing that comes close to a stock option for heavy indirect fire that's comparable to other factions' stock rocket artillery.

Again pack howizter is simply to powerful for its time frame.

And again you are missing the point. For the record I think Relic made some bad design decisions with the Western Front Armies by depriving them of several stock unit roles and personally I think all factions should have had access to stock tools like flamethrowers and rocket artillery to make them strategically versatile and viable. I don't disagree that the Pack Howitzer is very strong or even overpowered in certain aspects. But we're stuck with what we got now and we will have to work around that, and that means we can't simply strip a unit of its strategic role without thinking really hard about the consequences and risk leaving a faction vulnerable to a basic strategy. And we can't make any big changes to the faction design either.

There are multiple subcatagories of indirect fire because of the multiple strategic roles these catagories fulfill. The only thing that's misleading here is you pretending that Major arty is classified as indirect fire or even bringing infantry and tanks into an indirect fire comparison.

Mortars and Scotts do not instantly force off an enemy blob or turtle position like rocket artillery does. Offmaps are a completely different catagory to begin with because they are abilities that cost munitions and even then the USF doesn't have that many impressive ones.

The Pak Howitzer with its devastating AOE is the only thing that comes close to a stock option for heavy indirect fire that's comparable to other factions' stock rocket artillery.

USF do no have impressive off map? seriously? The IR pathfinders is almost certain hit to any unit that can not retreat, The time on target does significant damage to OKW trucks, M83 cluster mines wipes out ATGs, White phosphorus force retreats and leave unit healing for a very long time.

The " heavy indirect support weapon" is a nice theory but if in your opinion Pak howitzer is such a weapon its timing and lack of fuel cost is way way off.

If you want to make it a "stock rocket artillery equivalent" move it to major re-balance/redesign it and make Scott doctrinal.

And again you are missing the point. For the record I think Relic made some bad design decisions with the Western Front Armies by depriving them of several stock unit roles and personally I think all factions should have had access to stock tools like flamethrowers and rocket artillery to make them strategically versatile and viable. I don't disagree that the Pack Howitzer is very strong or even overpowered in certain aspects. But we're stuck with what we got now and we will have to work around that, and that means we can't simply strip a unit of its strategic role without thinking really hard about the consequences and risk leaving a faction vulnerable to a basic strategy. And we can't make any big changes to the faction design either.

Actually you are missing the point, Relic give WFA OP unit because they where lacking basic tools. With the current homogenization certain faction retained those tools while many of the limits to "several stock units roles" where removed. Those OP units simply need to brought inline.

USF where given access to a great mortar at T0 so they do not need an OP pak howitzer in the early game. Currently is I have already pointed out they can turtle up as good as Ostheer.

USF do no have impressive off map? seriously? The IR pathfinders is almost certain hit to any unit that can not retreat, The time on target does significant damage to OKW trucks, M83 cluster mines wipes out ATGs, White phosphorus force retreats and leave unit healing for a very long time.

For someone so keen on pointing out the smallest of details, you might want to read the part where I said they don't have that many, which doesn't mean they don't have any. Time On Target currently doesn't even guarantee to destroy a howitzer and dealing some damage to OKW trucks isn't a quantification of "impressive" in my opinion.

If you want to make it a "stock rocket artillery equivalent" move it to major re-balance/redesign it and make Scott doctrinal.

And again I literally gave you the reason why I think the way I think, which is that Relic will not allow major redesigns at this point. So what you are suggesting is pointless. We have to work with what we've got and that requires some units to perform as crutch units, because the USF still lacks certain stock options and we can't "simply" go around nerfing all of them without risking to ruin the faction. Changes to these crutch units (which I do think are necessary) have to be small and very well considered.

- PakHowie cost is 2.5x times that a mortar. Help mee, it hurts!
Nerf it to level of mortar, but keep the price (Wonders why Pack never
used to be used previously).
- 120mm Mortar.Doctrinal AND costs more - It hurts! Nerf it! (?!!)

- OKW CMD Panther costs more than a T34/76. OF COURSE it ought to be stronger.
- SturmTiger costs more than Sherman 105. Of COURSE it ought to be stronger

Desingenious logic.

Actually you are missing the point, Relic give WFA OP unit because they where lacking basic tools. With the current homogenization certain faction retained those tools while many of the limits to "several stock units roles" where removed. Those OP units simply need to brought inline.

USF where given access to a great mortar at T0 so they do not need an OP pak howitzer in the early game. Currently is I have already pointed out they can turtle up as good as Ostheer.

Doesn't make sense, USF is still lacking the tools the packhowi is there to compensate (still no Rocket Arty in stock). So with the current homogenization or you give USF the tools or you keep the actual equivalence at their level to keep it balanced.

Furthermore, Ostheer and OKW both have the perfect counter for it in form of pzwerfer and Stuka. You don't like to build them and prefer fielding a panther or a tiger before is strategic decision, not balance issue.

For someone so keen on pointing out the smallest of details, you might want to read the part where I said they don't have that many, which doesn't mean they don't have any.

Yet you claimed:
"Stripping the Pack Howitzer of its good AOE damage risks making the USF really bad against turtling and forcing them to pick Calliope/Priests doctrines all the time, when most other factions (OST, OKW, SOV) have stock options to deal with it."

I simply proven to you that USF have plenty of other stock and doctrinal options to deal with turtleing. I also pointed out to you that USF are very good at turtleing also.

Now you can choose to argue details as much as like but the bottom line is that the picture you painted about the necessity of an OP pack howitzer is far from the truth.

And again I literally gave you the reason why I think the way I think, which is that Relic will not allow major redesigns at this point. So what you are suggesting is pointless. We have to work with what we've got and that requires some units to perform as crutch units because the USF lacks stock options and we can't "simply" go around nerfing all of them without risking to ruin the faction.

A) You do not have to guess what Relic will allow or not, you can simply ask them.
B) You might have your ideas how the game should be designed but it comes down to Relic.
C) Imo you should either:
Convince Relic that your design is better and move forward with it
or
You should accept that Relic design is not changing is not changing and stop trying to squeeze your design into Relic's design.

The current half/half implementation is simply problematic.

Pack howitzer is simply an over performing unit especially for its time frame and it should be fixed.

The argument that it need to be OP because USF do not have access to thing like the weffer holds no water and imo it is bad mentality. It seem like a "grass is greener on the other side of the fence" approach that does not take into account many parameters.

Maybe we shoud just replace Pack howi with Calliope and be done with it.

- PakHowie cost is 2.5x times that a mortar. Help mee, it hurts!
Nerf it to level of mortar, but keep the price (Wonders why Pack never
used to be used previously).
- 120mm Mortar.Doctrinal AND costs more - It hurts! Nerf it! (?!!)

- OKW CMD Panther costs more than a T34/76. OF COURSE it ought to be stronger.
- SturmTiger costs more than Sherman 105. Of COURSE it ought to be stronger

Desingenious logic.

Where did you learn maths?

Maybe we shoud just replace Pack howi with Calliope and be done with it.

honestly yeah. If people continue to use "USF no rocket arty!!!1!1!!!1!" yet literally forget the scott exists as a mobile howitzer nondoc in only the USF faction. Take one, lose one and be done with it. Vippers suggestions of making the scott doctrinal would make perfect sense if calliope was made nondoc in major.

As far as the pak howi goes, I'm still waiting for a response on how to counter the pak howi on faymonville approach where it can shoot base to base. I'm not buying a pwerfer or stuka to counter a single teamweapon, that's rediculous.

I just remembered the Soviet 120mm mortar. I literally forgot it even existed. Haven´t seen one in months. How does the balance team think about Soviet 120mm mortar and Pak Howi performance in comparison? Balanced? These two units are pretty similiar in role and cost. Difference being the Soviet 120mm being doctrinal.

Agree on pack howi being OP. Only way to balance this unit is to reduce squad size to 3 men. Also remove mortar from USF as Vipper suggested.

A) You do not have to guess what Relic will allow or not, you can simply ask them.

I do ask them. Unlike some of us who just keep coming up with one unrealistic suggestion after the other.

I do ask them. Unlike some of us who just keep coming up with one unrealistic suggestion after the other.

Do you consider the Pack Howitzer to be one of these necessary crutch units?

If so, which important role does it serve that USF would lack without it?

The Pak Howie is expensive and locked behind more expensive tech than similar counterparts (leig). Making the argument it should be on par with the leig is the antithesis to how this game works, more expensive units are better.

There is something that most people are missing in this discussion which is that it's ONLY being viewed through the lense of an OST matchup. There are units that will ALWAYS excel vs certain factions because of playstyle and tools available within timing windows. Because of how OST plays, they will always be vulnerable to indirect fire.

No matter how much you nerf IDF, OST players will still come on to this forum complaining its "overperforming" simply because their units will ALWAYS be static.

OST got MASSIVE buffs this patch, literally all you have to do is put one Pgren squad in a HT and drive up to the paks. There is no way your opponent has 4 - 5 inf squads, 2 pak howies and an ATG/LV at this point in the game.

In my opinion, pak howie is one of the few units that hold together USFs NON-infantry play. If you significantly nerf this unit because its strong vs OST, USF will have to get units added or buffs elsewhere to offset this. the t0 mortar is bad and is only a smoke machine. If you want to nerf the pak howie, where is USF getting effective indirect from?


tl;dr

ost players will always whine about pak howie because of its effectiveness vs playstyle. It will always overperform in this matchup regardless of what balance team does to it. It's telling that OKW players are never complaining about this unit. Lastly, OST are NOT helpless in this situation, they have more than enough tools to trash pak howies.

If the enemy has an OKW on their team that pretty much negates all support weapon play for a start.

Do you consider the Pack Howitzer to be one of these necessary crutch units?

If so, which important role does it serve that USF would lack without it?

It's the closest USF can get to the nondoctrinal rocket artillery role (countering blobs and large concentrations of team weapons). The M8 Scott, while very annoying and good in numbers and dealing damage over time, doesn't have incredible DPS/DPM or alpha damage (although it does sometimes if you get really lucky with the scatter) either, nor the range and FoW scatter. Flat out nerfing either one of these would possibly (or even probably) leave the USF vulnerable to the basic strategy of turtling as they do not have any other stock alpha damage indirect fire piece like the Stuka, Panzerwerfer or Katyusha to support their pushes or defensive line with.

Therefor I do consider the Pack Howitzer's role in delivering high DPS indirect fire to be crutch. I would personally for both the Pack Howie and the M8 Scott decrease autofire performance while making the barrage slightly better (faster cooldown etc.) to their shift power into the micro department.

It's the closest USF can get to the nondoctrinal rocket artillery role (countering blobs and large concentrations of team weapons). The M8 Scott, while very annoying and good in numbers and dealing damage over time, doesn't have incredible DPS/DPM or alpha damage (although it does sometimes if you get really lucky with the scatter) either, nor the range and FoW scatter. Flat out nerfing either one of these would possibly (or even probably) leave the USF vulnerable to the basic strategy of turtling as they do not have other stock alpha damage indirect fire piece like the Stuka, Panzerwerfer or Katyusha to support their pushes or defensive line with.

Therefor I do consider the Pack Howitzer's role in delivering high DPS indirect fire to be crutch. I would personally for both the Pack Howie and the M8 Scott decrease autofire performance while making the barrage slightly better (faster cooldown etc.) to their shift power into the micro department.

Why does USF continue to have to pay a price with increased micro concentration simply because OST wants to never move their units out of cover? I understand asymmetric balance but its hilarious playing a game with USF and then playing an OST one right after. Legit feels like you could fall asleep playing the germans. USF would have no good artillery until major(!!!) when the scott could potentially come out but now you're spending fuel to get a decent IDF unit while axis GrWs and LeiGs walk all over your team weapons. To me this conversation is a non starter and we're only having this conversation because the literal same user keeps making the exact same thread over and over.

I just remembered the Soviet 120mm mortar. I literally forgot it even existed. Haven´t seen one in months. How does the balance team think about Soviet 120mm mortar and Pak Howi performance in comparison? Balanced? These two units are pretty similiar in role and cost. Difference being the Soviet 120mm being doctrinal.

The 120 usually kills fewer models than any of the cheaper mortars. It's marginally better than regular mortars for killing OKW trucks, but never really is worth it. In the unlikely event that someone is facing a lot of OST mortars, it might be worth it to prevent manpower bleed as it can safely target OST mortars and force them to retreat, but other than that is never worth getting. It was over-nerfed but I think that so many people were so tired of it for so long that nobody really lamented its passing.

It would have been nice if they just eliminated auto-targeting from all indirect, and just had an attack ground and/or barrage, plus the special abilities like some.